Zabimaru
Full Member
Always amused and bemused
Posts: 241
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Post by Zabimaru on May 27, 2009 17:18:15 GMT -5
I watch Bill O'Reilly sometimes (just for laughs) and I've heard a lot about this so-called war on Christmas. I've also seen many, many Christians on the Internet complain about it, crying their eyes out about how they are oppressed and not allowed to celebrate Christmas like they want to.
As I understand it, it's mainly about two things. They complain about the use of "Happy Holidays" in place of "Merry Christmas" and apparently some people fight to keep nativity scenes and similar religious symbols off certain public places to keep things in line with the establishment clause.
I guess that both things happen. I guess that people are as usual exaggerating and they don't happen in a way that actually oppresses Christians. But what makes me wonder is that the people who are complaining always, always blame atheists. They say that atheists are the ones who wage this "war" against Christmas.
Is there any truth to this? I always figured that it was simply about other actual religions, not atheism. I understand Muslims, Jews and so on having a strong opinion on a time of the year where everything is adorned in Christian symbolism, but other than protecting the constitution I can't see atheists caring very much.
Take my country for example. According to polls we are 80% non-believers, but we do celebrate Christmas. Sure, it's mostly the commercialized side of things, but we do have nativity scenes, church services, little angels in our Christmas trees and so on.
And we do wish each other a merry Christmas. Nobody seems to have a problem with that. Sure, our word for Christmas is jul and shares etymology with Yule, so it has pagan origins. But today it has nothing but Christian Christmas connotations.
So around here atheists don't care that we're going around celebrating a Christian holiday (even though it has made our traditional Winter Solstice festivals all but forgotten). We have no war on Christmas here, and no talk about it.
What I'm curious about is if it's actually different in America. Are the people complaining right? Is it actually atheists who care about the wording of greetings and things like that there? Or are atheists just being used as a convenient target again?
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Post by Thejebusfire on May 27, 2009 17:23:19 GMT -5
Well I think there were a a few athiests who complained about the nativity seen on government property, but I'm not sure if they were athiests or just people of another religion.
And I don't usually care if someone wishes me "happy holidays" or "merry christmas" its a greeting and take it that way and go on about my day.
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Post by wackadoodle on May 27, 2009 17:28:46 GMT -5
Afew years ago store owners realized non-christians and their money had holdiays around christmas at roughly the same time lawyers realized the government isn't supposed to be paying for celebrations of a religions savior. But you need something to fill 24 hours of FOX news so this became the War on Christmas. Its quite common for people who have read the constitution to be labeled athiests, socialist and other slurs on the same FOX news.
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Post by malicious_bloke on May 27, 2009 17:31:14 GMT -5
Christmas is hardly a christian festival the way it's celebrated in western countries.
Most of the ritual elements were here (in britain at least) before those pikey roman invaders decided we needed a dose of teh jesus. So, the meaning has been usurped, if you don't like it, don't participate.
What's next? Conscientious objectors protesting against armistice day commemorations?
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Post by The Lazy One on May 27, 2009 17:31:30 GMT -5
I don't know what they're talking about. I fucking love Christmas. I love to exchange presents, I love Christmas lights, I love Christmas trees, I love Christmas snacks, hell, I'll even put up with going to church on Christmas. I love the holidays that much. And I'm an American atheist.
But if me liking Christmas is an attack on Christmas, then something is screwy.
On the other hand, I will wish people "Happy Holidays" if I don't know what religion they are or if I know they are atheists/agnostic. But if you're Muslim, I'll wish you a happy Eid on Eid, and if you're Jewish I'll wish you a happy Hanukkah, and if you're Christian I'll wish you a merry Christmas.
So no, I don't think there's any war on Christmas.
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Zabimaru
Full Member
Always amused and bemused
Posts: 241
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Post by Zabimaru on May 27, 2009 17:34:45 GMT -5
Afew years ago store owners realized non-christians and their money had holdiays around christmas at roughly the same time lawyers realized the government isn't supposed to be paying for celebrations of a religions savior. But you need something to fill 24 hours of FOX news so this became the War on Christmas. Its quite common for people who have read the constitution to be labeled athiests, socialist and other slurs on the same FOX news. Yeah, that was kind of what I figured. Of course it is a good business practice to avoid alienating segments of the population, so using a generic term like "holidays" is better than talking about Christmas. Last year or the year before that I saw a video clip with some American right wing pundit who railed against some American stores. He was furious that their Christmas ads were wishing people happy holidays and that they were selling "holiday ornaments." I didn't understand why he was angry, and I was irritated when he time and time again said that this is what atheism does to a country. I really don't believe that atheism had anything to do with that - just business sense. |
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Post by MaybeNever on May 27, 2009 17:49:32 GMT -5
Japan, a nation overwhelmingly atheist, also does not celebrate Christmas! As you can see, atheism = war on Christmas.
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Post by skyfire on May 27, 2009 18:16:38 GMT -5
What happened is that there were indeed a few, isolated instances in which individuals went a little too far, either because they were afraid of offending people or because they legitimately hated the "religion" aspect.
For example, I recall hearing about one school district who ordered Christmas Break be renamed to remove the word "Christmas" from the name and declared that any and all choirs within the district were forbidden from singing any Christmas carols that were even remotely religious.
Likewise, I recall hearing about a city who allowed a Menorah display on city property but refused permission to a group that wanted to put up a Nativity display on the same block.
These incidents blended with a bunch of fake incidents in the retellings, and over time the real and fake stories of individuals going too far got mish-mashed around until in time it became a big huge conspiracy theory that athiests (et al) were trying to eliminate Christmas as we know it because the very thought of a religious holiday offended them.
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Post by Deimos on May 27, 2009 18:23:03 GMT -5
in Australia nobody really cares about this issue. There are nativity scenes at the local fairs and nobody gives a damn.
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Post by Old Viking on May 27, 2009 19:13:03 GMT -5
Just one more thing to whine about.
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Post by mistermuncher on May 27, 2009 19:29:52 GMT -5
The War On Christmas: how simple good manners, toleance and obeying the fecking law is an assault on "our values". A load of ould shite.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on May 27, 2009 19:50:27 GMT -5
This isn't fair to bitch about. The same thing happened with Christians and a Wiccan display. Federal government=/=local government.
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Post by antichrist on May 27, 2009 23:10:08 GMT -5
The song "Happy Holidays" was written way back in the 1942, so was Bing Crosby our first atheist soldier on this "war on Christmas"?
Even as a Christian kid, I was taught that "Happy Holidays" just included all the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years. It's a celebratory time of year.
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Post by wmdkitty on May 27, 2009 23:59:58 GMT -5
Why does it matter what you're celebrating, as long as you're celebrating with your loved ones?
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Post by schizophonic on May 28, 2009 0:03:51 GMT -5
The War On Christmas: how simple good manners, toleance and obeying the fecking law is an assault on "our values". A load of ould shite. This. The whole "War on Christmas" came out of a voluntary movement by some people to be considerate to the fact that there are people who don't celebrate Christmas. The cases of actual outcry are fairly small, as is typical of the crap Billo drums up. All of a sudden, instead of "consideration" and "kindness," we have "persecution." It wasn't a mandate, it was the sort of thing that happened on its own as an outcropping of humanity and general niceness. And Billo fucking hates that. Meanwhile, I live in the most atheist state in the US, I say "Merry Christmas" all the time, and I've rarely caught any crap for it. Maybe I'm atypical, but with all the Christmas stuff that goes up during the Holiday season, I don't think we really care. What doesn't offend me is Christmas celebrations. What does offend me are belligerent asshats who make a big stink because others have chosen to be considerate. |
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