Post by m52nickerson on Jul 7, 2009 20:32:50 GMT -5
Because my greatness knows no limits.....and me off line history still had it.....I give you Vene's thread from RR.
Not in the best shape but your should be able to make heads and tails of it.
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It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
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I dont actually have any questions, but I do like your Avatar pic.
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Originally Posted by Vene View Post
(Note: Mods, feel free to move this if I placed it in the wrong section)
It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
What is the eveolutionary advantage of emotions?
What is the evolutionary advantage of color vision?
What is the evolutionary advantage of manogomy?
What is the evolutionary advantage of morals?
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Homo sapiens were walking around for hundreds of thousands of years. Why did we only start recording history 6 000 years ago?
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Hmmm, well I'm not really sure what you're expecting with this question. It's akin to going to a Camaro forum and saying "hey everyone, I'm here to answer any questions you may have about the Mustang!"
Are you an atheist or agnostic? If so, please note that you're welcome to view any forums, but you can only post in Apologetics per the rules. Also, we don't allow atheists/ agnostics here with the intent of allowing them to defend their beliefs, they are allowed here solely to inquire about Christian beliefs. And only then if they're genuinely interested in Christianity (as opposed to simply trying to further an unbeliever's agenda).
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I dont actually have any questions, but I do like your Avatar pic.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Nocheechako View Post
What is the eveolutionary advantage of emotions?
For the most basic emotions (ex. fear), the ones controlled by the deepest regions of the brain it's actually very simple. Sticking with the fear example, it keeps the animal out of danger. If the squirrel is afraid of the dark tunnel, it won't enter it, if it won't enter it, it won't run into a hungry snake.
It tends to be social creatures that have the most complex emotions, these allow them to identify with other members of the group and work together. Survival of the fittest is very often misinterpreted to mean pure physical might and that it's everyone for themself. This is wrong. Humans survive and thrive because of our intelligence, we are squishy and weak. Dolphins can kill sharks, a potential predator, because they work together. It's the emotions that allow us (and them) to function as a group.
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What is the evolutionary advantage of color vision?
Easy example, the great apes. They tend to eat a large quantity of fruit. I sure hope you know that different fruits are different colors. Without color vision it's difficult to pick them out. But, with color vision, an orange is very easy to find. It can also aid in spotting predators.
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What is the evolutionary advantage of manogomy?
For some species, there isn't one. But, when offspring requires a fair bit of commitment to raise, it is beneficial. You have two individuals instead of one expending energy. The chance of the next generation surviving is greater, but by having more than one parent, the chance of parental death is lower.
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What is the evolutionary advantage of morals?
If the members of a species all started killing each other, I think that they have a fair chance of dying off. Those that don't kill each other, not saying they're going to survive, but that they have an actual chance.
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Homo sapiens were walking around for hundreds of thousands of years. Why did we only start recording history 6 000 years ago?
Humans didn't evolve the ability to write. It had to be developed and learned. Also, try 15,000 years.
Bear with me, I still don't have enough posts to post a proper link
news.softpedia.com/news/The-Egyptian-Civilization-10-000-Years-Older-than-Thought-59648.shtml
Tres, I'll keep that in mind.
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Welcome to the party Vene!
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Not really a question, but I would like to request that you provide us with a scientific experiment allows all of us to test, examine, reproduce, and observe the evolutionary process.
As we all know you can't do this, evolution is not science and fails to uphold the very definition of science.
All you have are self-contained theories based off a model of your own devising. "Scientists" are spending time devising theories they call "evidence" to fit into the "evolutionary model" they themselves have crafted!
And what of the fossil record? Darwin himself noted that there should literally be millions of "transitional" fossils, and if they weren't found, his theory was DOA. Well, they haven't been found. If this process is true, there would be millions of these fossils all over the globe. That's simple logic. It may sound silly, but in truth I should be able to go into my backyard and have a pretty good chance of digging up something. And if you cite one or two examples, does that really makes sense, given the sheer amount of time and numbers of iterations each species/kind/genus would have gone through to reach their present stages? If you can find fossils "hundreds of millions of years old", then what of 1 million, 400,000? Where are those millions upon millions? It's a joke, frankly.
So again, please provide us with an experiment that allows us to test, examine, reproduce, and observe the evolutionary process.
If this came off as harsh or snippy, that was not my intent, but to believe in evolution takes more faith than it does to believe in God. A billion random chances all have to hit in perfect order and the exact right time. No insult to you personally, but the fact that one can earn a college degree in evolutionary science speaks volumes about "higher learning".
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It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here.
Cool.
What are your thoughts on this article:
Israel: God's Timepiece
What's the Deal With Israel?
What is the deal with Israel - particularly Jerusalem? What is it about this tiny piece of real estate that captivates the Nations?
To anyone well-acquainted with God's Word, this should come as no surprise. The attention being given to this place was all predicted in the Bible!
This is one of the interesting things about Bible Prophecy: we are presented with History . . . written in advance!
Israel's role in Bible Prophecy is of extreme importance. It doesn't take an expert to see how Israel's very existence is a miracle!
Jerusalem: Chosen by God
Jerusalem is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible. (Interestingly - not once in the Koran!)
This is the ONE place in all of the world, that Jehovah God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - has singled out and called "His Own".
"But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel." - 2 Chronicles 6:6 (KJV) "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." - 2 Chronicles 7:16 (KJV) ". . . God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever" - 2 Chronicles 33:7 (KJV) "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation." - Psalm 132:13 (KJV) "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." - Psalm 137:5 (KJV)
More . . .
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For the most basic emotions (ex. fear), the ones controlled by the deepest regions of the brain it's actually very simple. Sticking with the fear example, it keeps the animal out of danger. If the squirrel is afraid of the dark tunnel, it won't enter it, if it won't enter it, it won't run into a hungry snake.
It tends to be social creatures that have the most complex emotions, these allow them to identify with other members of the group and work together. Survival of the fittest is very often misinterpreted to mean pure physical might and that it's everyone for themself. This is wrong. Humans survive and thrive because of our intelligence, we are squishy and weak. Dolphins can kill sharks, a potential predator, because they work together. It's the emotions that allow us (and them) to function as a group.
and the ant uses which emotion to work together?
What about Love, or envy?
Quote:
Easy example, the great apes. They tend to eat a large quantity of fruit. I sure hope you know that different fruits are different colors. Without color vision it's difficult to pick them out. But, with color vision, an orange is very easy to find. It can also aid in spotting predators.
Fruit also has a variety of shapes, textures and smells.
Quote:
For some species, there isn't one. But, when offspring requires a fair bit of commitment to raise, it is beneficial. You have two individuals instead of one expending energy. The chance of the next generation surviving is greater, but by having more than one parent, the chance of parental death is lower.
"fair bit of commitment" I'll say, nine month justation and how many years before independence?
Monogomy supresses evolution it minimizes genetic distribution and increases the opportunities for the passing on of negative genetic mutiations. Promosicuty among the "tribe" and intertribal procreation would be a superior evolutionary model with more evolutionary benifits.
Quote:
If the members of a species all started killing each other, I think that they have a fair chance of dying off. Those that don't kill each other, not saying they're going to survive, but that they have an actual chance.
Brown bear boars often kill and eat cubs to send the sow back into heat so that he may spread his genetic information. The brown bear has survived just fine without morals. Black widow spiders have survived just fine without morals. Praying matis do pretty well without morals. The latter two kill their own mate.
So once again what evolutionary advantage is their to morals? or emotions?
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"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." --Charles Darwin (1872, excerpted from a personal letter)
So what's your response, Vene?
(I've always personally believed that Charles Darwin himself was smarter than to believe that evolution is the explanation for the existence of life as we know it. But it was such a creative idea and attention getting that he went along with it.)
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I can provide an experiment that did test evolution. It was done by a microbiologist at Michigan State University by the name of Dr. Richard Lenski. What he did was grow E. coli in a "glucose-limited medium." Because at it's core, evolution is defined as 'change in gene expression over successive generations,' this is exactly what he measured. The experiment ran for ~40,000 generations (if this was humans, it would have been 800,000+ years) and the changes in their genes was measured. He found changes. In fact, after 31,500 generations, there was a drastic change. The organisms evolved the ability to digest citrate. An entirely new food source. The enzymes required did not exist prior to this. This can actually be considered a new species, due to the nature of bacteria.
Because bacteria are asexual (I'm ignoring conjugation for the sake of simplicity), they can't be separated into species in the same way we can with most animals. Instead, there are certain characteristics that are used. One of them is metabolism, what they can and can't eat. These bacteria have a new food source. They evolved new enzymes and genes.
Peer Review Journal (technical): www.pnas.org/content/100/3/1072.full
New Scientist Article (less technical): www.newscientist.com/article/...n-the-lab.html
As for the fossil record, we have them. If you want to see them, simply go to wikipedia and type "list of transitional fossils."
Some major examples are:
Archaeopteryx
Tiktaalik
Darwinius masillae
Ichthyornis
Dimetrodon
There are even organisms living today that can't be placed into clear categories. There are monotremes (like the platypus) that have hair (mammalian trait), secrete milk (mammalian trait), but also lay eggs (reptilian). There are also lungfish, which are exactly as they appear, fish in most every aspect, except they have lungs. They don't have the life cycle changes required to be amphibians, but part of the requirements to be a fish is the absence of lungs.
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Cool.
What are your thoughts on this article:
Israel: God's Timepiece
What's the Deal With Israel?
What is the deal with Israel - particularly Jerusalem? What is it about this tiny piece of real estate that captivates the Nations?
To anyone well-acquainted with God's Word, this should come as no surprise. The attention being given to this place was all predicted in the Bible!
This is one of the interesting things about Bible Prophecy: we are presented with History . . . written in advance!
Israel's role in Bible Prophecy is of extreme importance. It doesn't take an expert to see how Israel's very existence is a miracle!
Jerusalem: Chosen by God
Jerusalem is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible. (Interestingly - not once in the Koran!)
This is the ONE place in all of the world, that Jehovah God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - has singled out and called "His Own".
"But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel." - 2 Chronicles 6:6 (KJV) "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." - 2 Chronicles 7:16 (KJV) ". . . God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever" - 2 Chronicles 33:7 (KJV) "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation." - Psalm 132:13 (KJV) "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." - Psalm 137:5 (KJV)
More . . .
I'm not sure what to think about this to be honest. This also has absolutely nothing to do with any origins theory.
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I can provide an experiment that did test evolution. It was done by a microbiologist at Michigan State University by the name of Dr. Richard Lenski. What he did was grow E. coli in a "glucose-limited medium." Because at it's core, evolution is defined as 'change in gene expression over successive generations,' this is exactly what he measured. The experiment ran for ~40,000 generations (if this was humans, it would have been 800,000+ years) and the changes in their genes was measured. He found changes. In fact, after 31,500 generations, there was a drastic change. The organisms evolved the ability to digest citrate. An entirely new food source. The enzymes required did not exist prior to this. This can actually be considered a new species, due to the nature of bacteria.
Because bacteria are asexual (I'm ignoring conjugation for the sake of simplicity), they can't be separated into species in the same way we can with most animals. Instead, there are certain characteristics that are used. One of them is metabolism, what they can and can't eat. These bacteria have a new food source. They evolved new enzymes and genes.
Peer Review Journal (technical): www.pnas.org/content/100/3/1072.full
New Scientist Article (less technical): www.newscientist.com/article/...n-the-lab.html
As for the fossil record, we have them. If you want to see them, simply go to wikipedia and type "list of transitional fossils."
Some major examples are:
Archaeopteryx
Tiktaalik
Darwinius masillae
Ichthyornis
Dimetrodon
There are even organisms living today that can't be placed into clear categories. There are monotremes (like the platypus) that have hair (mammalian trait), secrete milk (mammalian trait), but also lay eggs (reptilian). There are also lungfish, which are exactly as they appear, fish in most every aspect, except they have lungs. They don't have the life cycle changes required to be amphibians, but part of the requirements to be a fish is the absence of lungs.
Isn't that not evolution, but adaptation?
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"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." --Charles Darwin (1872, excerpted from a personal letter)
So what's your response, Vene?
(I've always personally believed that Charles Darwin himself was smarter than to believe that evolution is the explanation for the existence of life as we know it. But it was such a creative idea and attention getting that he went along with it.)
My response is that you need to stop quote mining and actually read what he wrote.
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To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
It's also poor form to use Darwin as a definitive authority. He was wrong. He had a lot right, but he also had a lot wrong. He introduced evolution 150 years ago, of course he's going to have some mistakes. He didn't know about genes for example. He didn't even know that DNA existed. He didn't know about microorganisms. He had very few fossils. He couldn't sequence proteins, he had very little. For what he had, he did a great job, sure, but we have since found a lot more.
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and the ant uses which emotion to work together?
What about Love, or envy?
Ants use a different system entirely. It has its own advantages and disadvantages. Because evolution is not directed, it can find multiple solutions to the same problem.
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Fruit also has a variety of shapes, textures and smells.
Yes, yes it does. But can you feel an orange from a distance? Those who can see color have a distinct and clear advantage.
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"fair bit of commitment" I'll say, nine month justation and how many years before independence?
Monogomy supresses evolution it minimizes genetic distribution and increases the opportunities for the passing on of negative genetic mutiations. Promosicuty among the "tribe" and intertribal procreation would be a superior evolutionary model with more evolutionary benifits.
That means absolutely nothing if all of the offspring die.
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Brown bear boars often kill and eat cubs to send the sow back into heat so that he may spread his genetic information. The brown bear has survived just fine without morals. Black widow spiders have survived just fine without morals. Praying matis do pretty well without morals. The latter two kill their own mate.
None of them are social beings. Morality is more valuable to those which work together. And ants and bees, they're not so much social as slaves.
You're also making the assumption that everything that evolves has to have an advantage. It doesn't. It just can't hurt the organism.
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Isn't that not evolution, but adaptation?
Nope, evolution, I just told you, biologists define evolution as a change in gene expression. Adaptation is where the same organism responds to environmental changes. Evolution is where there are genetic differences between generations. Dr. Lenski measured gene changes.
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Nope, evolution, I just told you, biologists define evolution as a change in gene expression. Adaptation is where the same organism responds to environmental changes. Evolution is where there are genetic differences between generations. Dr. Lenski measured gene changes.
But wouldn't the ability to digest citrate be caused by the environment? You said the E. coli were grown in a glucose-limited medium. Aren't the E. coli adapting to their new environment? Wouldn't evolution be the E. coli randomly evolving because of a mutation?
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Did plant animal and insect life develop at the same time?
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I'm not sure what to think about this to be honest.
That's okay. Go ahead and give it a shot anyway.
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But wouldn't the ability to digest citrate be caused by the environment? You said the E. coli were grown in a glucose-limited medium. Aren't the E. coli adapting to their new environment? Wouldn't evolution be the E. coli randomly evolving because of a mutation?
The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
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(Note: Mods, feel free to move this if I placed it in the wrong section)
It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
What is Jesus to you?
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Did plant animal and insect life develop at the same time?
Well, insects are animals, so that question is oddly phrased. Insects appeared before some animals and after others. The oldest known plant fossil is 1.2 billion years old (link) and the oldest known animal fossil is 610 million years old (link).
So, plants appeared before animals. But, all of them continue to evolve and change, even today. The only way for evolution to 'finish' is when a species goes extinct.
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The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
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What is Jesus to you?
Jesus is the savior of the Christians and a prophet to the Muslims. I have no clue if he existed or not. I do know if he did, his name was actually Yeshua, not Jesus as Jesus is a translation.
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Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
Okay, this is true. I apologize. I was being overly critical and antagonistic. I will try to avoid doing this in the future. I sometimes forget that others don't have the same training and knowledge as me so what appears to be a simple concept to me is actually much more complicated. I'm sure if a mechanic tried to teach me how an engine worked, I would be completely baffled and lost and ask a lot of embarrassing questions.
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No questions . . . Yes, I accepted Jesus Christ as a young person, but I delved into the whole "are we right," "is evolution true," etc . . . in my teenage/early 20's.
All I can say is:
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I've been there, done that, and I ain't ever going back, I walked through Salvation's Door and there's nothing worth returning for, I'll never relive that life again. No, I'm never going back. NO WAY, I've been there, done that!
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Okay, this is true. I apologize. I was being overly critical and antagonistic. I will try to avoid doing this in the future. I sometimes forget that others don't have the same training and knowledge as me so what appears to be a simple concept to me is actually much more complicated. I'm sure if a mechanic tried to teach me how an engine worked, I would be completely baffled and lost and ask a lot of embarrassing questions.
Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
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Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
I have yet to understand why we on RR fascinate those on FSTDT so much?
Reminds me of Wile-E-Coyote . . . "super genius"
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The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
Actually it was the evolutionaist camp that changed linguistics. Twenty five years ago there was evolution, the transition from one species to another and adaptation the ability of flora and fauna to adapt to its environment. The darwinsit a number of years back began calling adaptation evolution. This subtle word change has been effective in the sematic battle of the debate because now if I say I don't believe evolution to be true I am perceived a foool because of observable adaptations such as the ecoli experiment you referred to. The reality is you still have ecoli. Under the definition of 25 years ago this would not be referred to as evolution but rather adaptation.
Now since Geology is not your area let me explain one of the areas where evolution falls apart. I acutally was studying to be a science teacher, geology was my area. I took a palentology and geology course simultaneously. My palentology professor taught me I cold date fossils by the layers of rock they were found in. My Geology professor taught me I could date the layers by the fossils that were found in them. Needless to say the paradox did not go unnoticed with me.
Now to the geologic column, something that was in you biology books and every geology text. The geologic column does not exist anywhere on earth in the manner it is presented in text books. It is the assembly of layers from different locations around the planet assembled by assumptions.
My Biology text in the 80s contained Haekel drawings presented as fact and proof of eveloution, nearly 100 years after they were proved frauds. Why would eveolution need to forward frauds?
How about those moths pinned to the trees?
How about Piltdown man, Nebraska man, Java man, or Orce man.
Why the need for fraud if the evidence is so definitive?
I followed the path of evolution, I intended to teach it. I found that it originates from the same place all lies do. The desire to put ourselves in the place of God.
I serve a risen Savior, the creator of Heaven and Earth. Jesus Christ who was, who is and is to come. I hope that some day you might know the truth of the God of the universe.
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Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
Thanks. Yup, I'm just trying to understand. Actually, I understand evolution just fine. What I'm really trying to understand is why people fall for this "evolution" stuff.
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Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
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Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
Read his apology again. He is basically calling us morons for not buying into his 'higher' understanding of how the universe came about and how it 'evolved' into what we see today.
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Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
He could know everything about evolution but that doesn't make it correct. In fact, the more I learned about evolution the less I believed it.
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
Read the post above. He could know everything there is to know about evolution but that doesn't make it true.
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Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
MrMannn has had much interaction with atheists and those from FSTDT. You wouldn't necessarily know that, but take my word for it!
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Read his apology again. He is basically calling us morons for not buying into his 'higher' understanding of how the universe came about and how it 'evolved' into what we see today.
No, sorry, I don't get that out of his apology. He simply implied that others here might not be as well-versed on the concept of evolution, and I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make.
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No, sorry, I don't get that out of his apology. He simply implied that others here might not be as well-versed on the concept of evolution, and I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make.
But does his knowledge of evolution make it right? It's obvious he came here to troll. He's on FSTDT right now talking about us. Smile everyone, you're on FSTDT Candid Camera.
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
We aren't on this forum to learn, or ask him questions, about evolution. That seemed to be all he wanted to talk about.
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MrMannn has had much interaction with atheists and those from FSTDT. You wouldn't necessarily know that, but take my word for it!
You mean mister MrMannn who joined FSTDT under a different name just to promote his blog and has just gone back to FSTDT to gloat over the fact that Vene can no longer post.
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He could know everything about evolution but that doesn't make it correct. In fact, the more I learned about evolution the less I believed it.
Irrelevant. He apologized for being antagonistic. "MrMannn's" reply was uncalled for.
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We aren't on this forum to learn, or ask him questions, about evolution. That seemed to be all he wanted to talk about.
.....and any member who did not want to learn or ask a question did not have to come into this thread did they?
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
No, it had nothing to do with this thread in fact. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, atheists/ agnostics are allowed to post here if they wish to pose genuine questions about Christianity. They are NOT allowed on here to endlessly push their unbelieving agenda. Really this whole thread is against our rules, but we allowed some leeway on it. Since Vene is "read only" now there's no need to continue this thread.
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No, it had nothing to do with this thread in fact. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, atheists/ agnostics are allowed to post here if they wish to pose genuine questions about Christianity. They are NOT allowed on here to endlessly push their unbelieving agenda. Really this whole thread is against our rules, but we allowed some leeway on it. Since Vene is "read only" now there's no need to continue this thread.
I read the thread title and just yawned, as though we should feel privileged or something.
Been there, done that. I for one love atheist/agnostics who really seek answers or may not be totally secure in their own beliefs and want to look at the issue. On the other hand the FSTDT types who come here to try out their skills are a tiresome lot.
Not in the best shape but your should be able to make heads and tails of it.
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(Note: Mods, feel free to move this if I placed it in the wrong section)
It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
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I dont actually have any questions, but I do like your Avatar pic.
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(Note: Mods, feel free to move this if I placed it in the wrong section)
It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
What is the eveolutionary advantage of emotions?
What is the evolutionary advantage of color vision?
What is the evolutionary advantage of manogomy?
What is the evolutionary advantage of morals?
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Homo sapiens were walking around for hundreds of thousands of years. Why did we only start recording history 6 000 years ago?
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Hmmm, well I'm not really sure what you're expecting with this question. It's akin to going to a Camaro forum and saying "hey everyone, I'm here to answer any questions you may have about the Mustang!"
Are you an atheist or agnostic? If so, please note that you're welcome to view any forums, but you can only post in Apologetics per the rules. Also, we don't allow atheists/ agnostics here with the intent of allowing them to defend their beliefs, they are allowed here solely to inquire about Christian beliefs. And only then if they're genuinely interested in Christianity (as opposed to simply trying to further an unbeliever's agenda).
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I dont actually have any questions, but I do like your Avatar pic.
Thanks.
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What is the eveolutionary advantage of emotions?
For the most basic emotions (ex. fear), the ones controlled by the deepest regions of the brain it's actually very simple. Sticking with the fear example, it keeps the animal out of danger. If the squirrel is afraid of the dark tunnel, it won't enter it, if it won't enter it, it won't run into a hungry snake.
It tends to be social creatures that have the most complex emotions, these allow them to identify with other members of the group and work together. Survival of the fittest is very often misinterpreted to mean pure physical might and that it's everyone for themself. This is wrong. Humans survive and thrive because of our intelligence, we are squishy and weak. Dolphins can kill sharks, a potential predator, because they work together. It's the emotions that allow us (and them) to function as a group.
Quote:
What is the evolutionary advantage of color vision?
Easy example, the great apes. They tend to eat a large quantity of fruit. I sure hope you know that different fruits are different colors. Without color vision it's difficult to pick them out. But, with color vision, an orange is very easy to find. It can also aid in spotting predators.
Quote:
What is the evolutionary advantage of manogomy?
For some species, there isn't one. But, when offspring requires a fair bit of commitment to raise, it is beneficial. You have two individuals instead of one expending energy. The chance of the next generation surviving is greater, but by having more than one parent, the chance of parental death is lower.
Quote:
What is the evolutionary advantage of morals?
If the members of a species all started killing each other, I think that they have a fair chance of dying off. Those that don't kill each other, not saying they're going to survive, but that they have an actual chance.
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Homo sapiens were walking around for hundreds of thousands of years. Why did we only start recording history 6 000 years ago?
Humans didn't evolve the ability to write. It had to be developed and learned. Also, try 15,000 years.
Bear with me, I still don't have enough posts to post a proper link
news.softpedia.com/news/The-Egyptian-Civilization-10-000-Years-Older-than-Thought-59648.shtml
Tres, I'll keep that in mind.
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Welcome to the party Vene!
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Not really a question, but I would like to request that you provide us with a scientific experiment allows all of us to test, examine, reproduce, and observe the evolutionary process.
As we all know you can't do this, evolution is not science and fails to uphold the very definition of science.
All you have are self-contained theories based off a model of your own devising. "Scientists" are spending time devising theories they call "evidence" to fit into the "evolutionary model" they themselves have crafted!
And what of the fossil record? Darwin himself noted that there should literally be millions of "transitional" fossils, and if they weren't found, his theory was DOA. Well, they haven't been found. If this process is true, there would be millions of these fossils all over the globe. That's simple logic. It may sound silly, but in truth I should be able to go into my backyard and have a pretty good chance of digging up something. And if you cite one or two examples, does that really makes sense, given the sheer amount of time and numbers of iterations each species/kind/genus would have gone through to reach their present stages? If you can find fossils "hundreds of millions of years old", then what of 1 million, 400,000? Where are those millions upon millions? It's a joke, frankly.
So again, please provide us with an experiment that allows us to test, examine, reproduce, and observe the evolutionary process.
If this came off as harsh or snippy, that was not my intent, but to believe in evolution takes more faith than it does to believe in God. A billion random chances all have to hit in perfect order and the exact right time. No insult to you personally, but the fact that one can earn a college degree in evolutionary science speaks volumes about "higher learning".
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It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here.
Cool.
What are your thoughts on this article:
Israel: God's Timepiece
What's the Deal With Israel?
What is the deal with Israel - particularly Jerusalem? What is it about this tiny piece of real estate that captivates the Nations?
To anyone well-acquainted with God's Word, this should come as no surprise. The attention being given to this place was all predicted in the Bible!
This is one of the interesting things about Bible Prophecy: we are presented with History . . . written in advance!
Israel's role in Bible Prophecy is of extreme importance. It doesn't take an expert to see how Israel's very existence is a miracle!
Jerusalem: Chosen by God
Jerusalem is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible. (Interestingly - not once in the Koran!)
This is the ONE place in all of the world, that Jehovah God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - has singled out and called "His Own".
"But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel." - 2 Chronicles 6:6 (KJV) "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." - 2 Chronicles 7:16 (KJV) ". . . God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever" - 2 Chronicles 33:7 (KJV) "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation." - Psalm 132:13 (KJV) "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." - Psalm 137:5 (KJV)
More . . .
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For the most basic emotions (ex. fear), the ones controlled by the deepest regions of the brain it's actually very simple. Sticking with the fear example, it keeps the animal out of danger. If the squirrel is afraid of the dark tunnel, it won't enter it, if it won't enter it, it won't run into a hungry snake.
It tends to be social creatures that have the most complex emotions, these allow them to identify with other members of the group and work together. Survival of the fittest is very often misinterpreted to mean pure physical might and that it's everyone for themself. This is wrong. Humans survive and thrive because of our intelligence, we are squishy and weak. Dolphins can kill sharks, a potential predator, because they work together. It's the emotions that allow us (and them) to function as a group.
and the ant uses which emotion to work together?
What about Love, or envy?
Quote:
Easy example, the great apes. They tend to eat a large quantity of fruit. I sure hope you know that different fruits are different colors. Without color vision it's difficult to pick them out. But, with color vision, an orange is very easy to find. It can also aid in spotting predators.
Fruit also has a variety of shapes, textures and smells.
Quote:
For some species, there isn't one. But, when offspring requires a fair bit of commitment to raise, it is beneficial. You have two individuals instead of one expending energy. The chance of the next generation surviving is greater, but by having more than one parent, the chance of parental death is lower.
"fair bit of commitment" I'll say, nine month justation and how many years before independence?
Monogomy supresses evolution it minimizes genetic distribution and increases the opportunities for the passing on of negative genetic mutiations. Promosicuty among the "tribe" and intertribal procreation would be a superior evolutionary model with more evolutionary benifits.
Quote:
If the members of a species all started killing each other, I think that they have a fair chance of dying off. Those that don't kill each other, not saying they're going to survive, but that they have an actual chance.
Brown bear boars often kill and eat cubs to send the sow back into heat so that he may spread his genetic information. The brown bear has survived just fine without morals. Black widow spiders have survived just fine without morals. Praying matis do pretty well without morals. The latter two kill their own mate.
So once again what evolutionary advantage is their to morals? or emotions?
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"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." --Charles Darwin (1872, excerpted from a personal letter)
So what's your response, Vene?
(I've always personally believed that Charles Darwin himself was smarter than to believe that evolution is the explanation for the existence of life as we know it. But it was such a creative idea and attention getting that he went along with it.)
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I can provide an experiment that did test evolution. It was done by a microbiologist at Michigan State University by the name of Dr. Richard Lenski. What he did was grow E. coli in a "glucose-limited medium." Because at it's core, evolution is defined as 'change in gene expression over successive generations,' this is exactly what he measured. The experiment ran for ~40,000 generations (if this was humans, it would have been 800,000+ years) and the changes in their genes was measured. He found changes. In fact, after 31,500 generations, there was a drastic change. The organisms evolved the ability to digest citrate. An entirely new food source. The enzymes required did not exist prior to this. This can actually be considered a new species, due to the nature of bacteria.
Because bacteria are asexual (I'm ignoring conjugation for the sake of simplicity), they can't be separated into species in the same way we can with most animals. Instead, there are certain characteristics that are used. One of them is metabolism, what they can and can't eat. These bacteria have a new food source. They evolved new enzymes and genes.
Peer Review Journal (technical): www.pnas.org/content/100/3/1072.full
New Scientist Article (less technical): www.newscientist.com/article/...n-the-lab.html
As for the fossil record, we have them. If you want to see them, simply go to wikipedia and type "list of transitional fossils."
Some major examples are:
Archaeopteryx
Tiktaalik
Darwinius masillae
Ichthyornis
Dimetrodon
There are even organisms living today that can't be placed into clear categories. There are monotremes (like the platypus) that have hair (mammalian trait), secrete milk (mammalian trait), but also lay eggs (reptilian). There are also lungfish, which are exactly as they appear, fish in most every aspect, except they have lungs. They don't have the life cycle changes required to be amphibians, but part of the requirements to be a fish is the absence of lungs.
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Cool.
What are your thoughts on this article:
Israel: God's Timepiece
What's the Deal With Israel?
What is the deal with Israel - particularly Jerusalem? What is it about this tiny piece of real estate that captivates the Nations?
To anyone well-acquainted with God's Word, this should come as no surprise. The attention being given to this place was all predicted in the Bible!
This is one of the interesting things about Bible Prophecy: we are presented with History . . . written in advance!
Israel's role in Bible Prophecy is of extreme importance. It doesn't take an expert to see how Israel's very existence is a miracle!
Jerusalem: Chosen by God
Jerusalem is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible. (Interestingly - not once in the Koran!)
This is the ONE place in all of the world, that Jehovah God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - has singled out and called "His Own".
"But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel." - 2 Chronicles 6:6 (KJV) "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." - 2 Chronicles 7:16 (KJV) ". . . God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever" - 2 Chronicles 33:7 (KJV) "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation." - Psalm 132:13 (KJV) "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." - Psalm 137:5 (KJV)
More . . .
I'm not sure what to think about this to be honest. This also has absolutely nothing to do with any origins theory.
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I can provide an experiment that did test evolution. It was done by a microbiologist at Michigan State University by the name of Dr. Richard Lenski. What he did was grow E. coli in a "glucose-limited medium." Because at it's core, evolution is defined as 'change in gene expression over successive generations,' this is exactly what he measured. The experiment ran for ~40,000 generations (if this was humans, it would have been 800,000+ years) and the changes in their genes was measured. He found changes. In fact, after 31,500 generations, there was a drastic change. The organisms evolved the ability to digest citrate. An entirely new food source. The enzymes required did not exist prior to this. This can actually be considered a new species, due to the nature of bacteria.
Because bacteria are asexual (I'm ignoring conjugation for the sake of simplicity), they can't be separated into species in the same way we can with most animals. Instead, there are certain characteristics that are used. One of them is metabolism, what they can and can't eat. These bacteria have a new food source. They evolved new enzymes and genes.
Peer Review Journal (technical): www.pnas.org/content/100/3/1072.full
New Scientist Article (less technical): www.newscientist.com/article/...n-the-lab.html
As for the fossil record, we have them. If you want to see them, simply go to wikipedia and type "list of transitional fossils."
Some major examples are:
Archaeopteryx
Tiktaalik
Darwinius masillae
Ichthyornis
Dimetrodon
There are even organisms living today that can't be placed into clear categories. There are monotremes (like the platypus) that have hair (mammalian trait), secrete milk (mammalian trait), but also lay eggs (reptilian). There are also lungfish, which are exactly as they appear, fish in most every aspect, except they have lungs. They don't have the life cycle changes required to be amphibians, but part of the requirements to be a fish is the absence of lungs.
Isn't that not evolution, but adaptation?
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"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." --Charles Darwin (1872, excerpted from a personal letter)
So what's your response, Vene?
(I've always personally believed that Charles Darwin himself was smarter than to believe that evolution is the explanation for the existence of life as we know it. But it was such a creative idea and attention getting that he went along with it.)
My response is that you need to stop quote mining and actually read what he wrote.
Quote:
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
It's also poor form to use Darwin as a definitive authority. He was wrong. He had a lot right, but he also had a lot wrong. He introduced evolution 150 years ago, of course he's going to have some mistakes. He didn't know about genes for example. He didn't even know that DNA existed. He didn't know about microorganisms. He had very few fossils. He couldn't sequence proteins, he had very little. For what he had, he did a great job, sure, but we have since found a lot more.
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and the ant uses which emotion to work together?
What about Love, or envy?
Ants use a different system entirely. It has its own advantages and disadvantages. Because evolution is not directed, it can find multiple solutions to the same problem.
Quote:
Fruit also has a variety of shapes, textures and smells.
Yes, yes it does. But can you feel an orange from a distance? Those who can see color have a distinct and clear advantage.
Quote:
"fair bit of commitment" I'll say, nine month justation and how many years before independence?
Monogomy supresses evolution it minimizes genetic distribution and increases the opportunities for the passing on of negative genetic mutiations. Promosicuty among the "tribe" and intertribal procreation would be a superior evolutionary model with more evolutionary benifits.
That means absolutely nothing if all of the offspring die.
Quote:
Brown bear boars often kill and eat cubs to send the sow back into heat so that he may spread his genetic information. The brown bear has survived just fine without morals. Black widow spiders have survived just fine without morals. Praying matis do pretty well without morals. The latter two kill their own mate.
None of them are social beings. Morality is more valuable to those which work together. And ants and bees, they're not so much social as slaves.
You're also making the assumption that everything that evolves has to have an advantage. It doesn't. It just can't hurt the organism.
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Isn't that not evolution, but adaptation?
Nope, evolution, I just told you, biologists define evolution as a change in gene expression. Adaptation is where the same organism responds to environmental changes. Evolution is where there are genetic differences between generations. Dr. Lenski measured gene changes.
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Originally Posted by Vene View Post
Nope, evolution, I just told you, biologists define evolution as a change in gene expression. Adaptation is where the same organism responds to environmental changes. Evolution is where there are genetic differences between generations. Dr. Lenski measured gene changes.
But wouldn't the ability to digest citrate be caused by the environment? You said the E. coli were grown in a glucose-limited medium. Aren't the E. coli adapting to their new environment? Wouldn't evolution be the E. coli randomly evolving because of a mutation?
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tekton Male tekton is offline
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Did plant animal and insect life develop at the same time?
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I'm not sure what to think about this to be honest.
That's okay. Go ahead and give it a shot anyway.
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
But wouldn't the ability to digest citrate be caused by the environment? You said the E. coli were grown in a glucose-limited medium. Aren't the E. coli adapting to their new environment? Wouldn't evolution be the E. coli randomly evolving because of a mutation?
The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
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Anddra Male Anddra is offline
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Originally Posted by Vene View Post
(Note: Mods, feel free to move this if I placed it in the wrong section)
It's just as the title says, you have a real live, degree bearing evolutionist here. Feel free to ask away, I can't guarantee I can answer every question you have (I know biology and chemistry, very little physics and practically no geology), but if you want to ask about the actual theory, I should be able to answer your question.
What is Jesus to you?
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Originally Posted by tekton View Post
Did plant animal and insect life develop at the same time?
Well, insects are animals, so that question is oddly phrased. Insects appeared before some animals and after others. The oldest known plant fossil is 1.2 billion years old (link) and the oldest known animal fossil is 610 million years old (link).
So, plants appeared before animals. But, all of them continue to evolve and change, even today. The only way for evolution to 'finish' is when a species goes extinct.
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Originally Posted by Vene View Post
The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
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What is Jesus to you?
Jesus is the savior of the Christians and a prophet to the Muslims. I have no clue if he existed or not. I do know if he did, his name was actually Yeshua, not Jesus as Jesus is a translation.
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Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
Okay, this is true. I apologize. I was being overly critical and antagonistic. I will try to avoid doing this in the future. I sometimes forget that others don't have the same training and knowledge as me so what appears to be a simple concept to me is actually much more complicated. I'm sure if a mechanic tried to teach me how an engine worked, I would be completely baffled and lost and ask a lot of embarrassing questions.
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KaiafromBergen Female KaiafromBergen is offline
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No questions . . . Yes, I accepted Jesus Christ as a young person, but I delved into the whole "are we right," "is evolution true," etc . . . in my teenage/early 20's.
All I can say is:
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I've been there, done that, and I ain't ever going back, I walked through Salvation's Door and there's nothing worth returning for, I'll never relive that life again. No, I'm never going back. NO WAY, I've been there, done that!
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MrMannn MrMannn is online now
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Okay, this is true. I apologize. I was being overly critical and antagonistic. I will try to avoid doing this in the future. I sometimes forget that others don't have the same training and knowledge as me so what appears to be a simple concept to me is actually much more complicated. I'm sure if a mechanic tried to teach me how an engine worked, I would be completely baffled and lost and ask a lot of embarrassing questions.
Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
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KaiafromBergen Female KaiafromBergen is offline
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Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
I have yet to understand why we on RR fascinate those on FSTDT so much?
Reminds me of Wile-E-Coyote . . . "super genius"
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MrMannn MrMannn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vene View Post
The environment did not cause the mutations. You are trying to twist the definitions of words just so you don't have to use the dreaded "E" word. This is the definition of evolution. Evolution is defined as 'change in genes over time' and that is exactly what happened. The E. coli in 1988 (when the experiment started) have different genes than the E. coli in 2009.
Actually it was the evolutionaist camp that changed linguistics. Twenty five years ago there was evolution, the transition from one species to another and adaptation the ability of flora and fauna to adapt to its environment. The darwinsit a number of years back began calling adaptation evolution. This subtle word change has been effective in the sematic battle of the debate because now if I say I don't believe evolution to be true I am perceived a foool because of observable adaptations such as the ecoli experiment you referred to. The reality is you still have ecoli. Under the definition of 25 years ago this would not be referred to as evolution but rather adaptation.
Now since Geology is not your area let me explain one of the areas where evolution falls apart. I acutally was studying to be a science teacher, geology was my area. I took a palentology and geology course simultaneously. My palentology professor taught me I cold date fossils by the layers of rock they were found in. My Geology professor taught me I could date the layers by the fossils that were found in them. Needless to say the paradox did not go unnoticed with me.
Now to the geologic column, something that was in you biology books and every geology text. The geologic column does not exist anywhere on earth in the manner it is presented in text books. It is the assembly of layers from different locations around the planet assembled by assumptions.
My Biology text in the 80s contained Haekel drawings presented as fact and proof of eveloution, nearly 100 years after they were proved frauds. Why would eveolution need to forward frauds?
How about those moths pinned to the trees?
How about Piltdown man, Nebraska man, Java man, or Orce man.
Why the need for fraud if the evidence is so definitive?
I followed the path of evolution, I intended to teach it. I found that it originates from the same place all lies do. The desire to put ourselves in the place of God.
I serve a risen Savior, the creator of Heaven and Earth. Jesus Christ who was, who is and is to come. I hope that some day you might know the truth of the God of the universe.
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Originally Posted by Zerozx View Post
Or maybe he is just trying to understand?
Thanks. Yup, I'm just trying to understand. Actually, I understand evolution just fine. What I'm really trying to understand is why people fall for this "evolution" stuff.
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Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Translation: I'm educated and y'all are not.
Oh please have patience with us oh wise one from FSTDT.
Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
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Originally Posted by Scriven View Post
Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
Read his apology again. He is basically calling us morons for not buying into his 'higher' understanding of how the universe came about and how it 'evolved' into what we see today.
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Originally Posted by Scriven View Post
Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
He could know everything about evolution but that doesn't make it correct. In fact, the more I learned about evolution the less I believed it.
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m52nickerson Male m52nickerson is online now
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
Read the post above. He could know everything there is to know about evolution but that doesn't make it true.
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Originally Posted by Scriven View Post
Wow. He apologized for being a little snippy, and you attack him for that? I don't know, just a theory, but when it comes to evolution, my guess would be that he IS more knowledgeable on the subject. In any case, I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you're criticizing his APOLOGY!
MrMannn has had much interaction with atheists and those from FSTDT. You wouldn't necessarily know that, but take my word for it!
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Originally Posted by ZAGS View Post
Read his apology again. He is basically calling us morons for not buying into his 'higher' understanding of how the universe came about and how it 'evolved' into what we see today.
No, sorry, I don't get that out of his apology. He simply implied that others here might not be as well-versed on the concept of evolution, and I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make.
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No, sorry, I don't get that out of his apology. He simply implied that others here might not be as well-versed on the concept of evolution, and I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make.
But does his knowledge of evolution make it right? It's obvious he came here to troll. He's on FSTDT right now talking about us. Smile everyone, you're on FSTDT Candid Camera.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
We aren't on this forum to learn, or ask him questions, about evolution. That seemed to be all he wanted to talk about.
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MrMannn has had much interaction with atheists and those from FSTDT. You wouldn't necessarily know that, but take my word for it!
You mean mister MrMannn who joined FSTDT under a different name just to promote his blog and has just gone back to FSTDT to gloat over the fact that Vene can no longer post.
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Scriven Scriven is online now
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
He could know everything about evolution but that doesn't make it correct. In fact, the more I learned about evolution the less I believed it.
Irrelevant. He apologized for being antagonistic. "MrMannn's" reply was uncalled for.
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Originally Posted by Zerozx View Post
We aren't on this forum to learn, or ask him questions, about evolution. That seemed to be all he wanted to talk about.
.....and any member who did not want to learn or ask a question did not have to come into this thread did they?
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Is that why Vene was put to read only? He merely stated that he is more trained in the area. How many of you have degrees in biology?
No, it had nothing to do with this thread in fact. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, atheists/ agnostics are allowed to post here if they wish to pose genuine questions about Christianity. They are NOT allowed on here to endlessly push their unbelieving agenda. Really this whole thread is against our rules, but we allowed some leeway on it. Since Vene is "read only" now there's no need to continue this thread.
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Originally Posted by Tres Wright View Post
No, it had nothing to do with this thread in fact. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, atheists/ agnostics are allowed to post here if they wish to pose genuine questions about Christianity. They are NOT allowed on here to endlessly push their unbelieving agenda. Really this whole thread is against our rules, but we allowed some leeway on it. Since Vene is "read only" now there's no need to continue this thread.
I read the thread title and just yawned, as though we should feel privileged or something.
Been there, done that. I for one love atheist/agnostics who really seek answers or may not be totally secure in their own beliefs and want to look at the issue. On the other hand the FSTDT types who come here to try out their skills are a tiresome lot.