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Post by schizophonic on Mar 13, 2009 23:40:27 GMT -5
It's held that a circumcision, if done right, can provide some hygiene benefits in life as the foreskin is an area where bacteria and other nasty things can develop. My high school health book actually made reference to this in the section on male reproduction and sexuality. Of note is that the concept also exists in the UK. The book "Bravo Two Zero" is an autobiography written by an SAS trooper whose team was captured during an op in the first Desert Storm. His interrogator was convinced that he and his men were Israeli, and as proof he showed his foreskin. However, shortly after that he realized that one of his men was of Syrian descent and so might have had one. He tried to get around it by noting that some parents do circumcisions for hygiene reasons, but it nearly backfired on him because the interrogator hadn't heard of the practice and so initially believed him to be lying to protect an Israeli operative. It's "held," but not necessarily true. The most convincing evidence comes from a study done in India a couple of decades ago, where hygiene is different than is standard in the US. A high school health book is not necessarily the best place to learn about circumcision. The benefits are especially limited in this culture, and the risk carried in terms of potential damage do not really help validate it.
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Post by ltfred on Mar 13, 2009 23:43:44 GMT -5
Statistics don't need correct down to the dozens. Even being a hundred off a year is absolutely fine. That's particularly so for finding out whether the problem is severe or not. If you wanted, you could even send a proper polling agency there, like Opinion Buisness Research or the Lancet, who do that kind of thing in disaster zones and in the middle of wars (they were the ones who found out the death toll from Operation Iraqi freedom). Well my edit did explain it to a degree too. It depends what information you use to estimate it. In the Congo estimates probably came from personal investigation (Not sure, haven't seen the estimates but that would be my guess), in Iran I don't think anyone has done a personal investigation and so estimates would probably come from the obviously biased and wrong government reports. I don't know what the hell a 'personal investigation' is. The only real methods of getting an accurate figure is either polling data (ie asking a random representative sample of the population), or reliable criminal statistics, which the Iranians obviously don't have.
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Post by ironbite on Mar 14, 2009 0:05:25 GMT -5
This thread makes me think violent thoughts. Very violent thoughts. Do they involve a rifle, lots of ammo, and enough firepower to peel the paint off your house and give your family a permanent orange afro? If so, you are approaching what I would want to do to theM, ALTHOUGH I'd sooner go for giving them a lot less dignity in death... I'm all for turning these idiots into self-contained nukes. Ironbite-and having their senses extended so far that a second takes 10000 years.
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nuitarihw
Junior Member
What's holding up is a mirror
Posts: 90
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Post by nuitarihw on Mar 14, 2009 0:29:47 GMT -5
Well my edit did explain it to a degree too. It depends what information you use to estimate it. In the Congo estimates probably came from personal investigation (Not sure, haven't seen the estimates but that would be my guess), in Iran I don't think anyone has done a personal investigation and so estimates would probably come from the obviously biased and wrong government reports. I don't know what the hell a 'personal investigation' is. The only real methods of getting an accurate figure is either polling data (ie asking a random representative sample of the population), or reliable criminal statistics, which the Iranians obviously don't have. By personal investigation I meant getting the data first hand, which would be the company that does polling, or hiring a company to do polling. As opposed to second hand data, which would be government reports.
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Post by skyfire on Mar 14, 2009 0:30:55 GMT -5
It's held that a circumcision, if done right, can provide some hygiene benefits in life as the foreskin is an area where bacteria and other nasty things can develop. My high school health book actually made reference to this in the section on male reproduction and sexuality. Of note is that the concept also exists in the UK. The book "Bravo Two Zero" is an autobiography written by an SAS trooper whose team was captured during an op in the first Desert Storm. His interrogator was convinced that he and his men were Israeli, and as proof he showed his foreskin. However, shortly after that he realized that one of his men was of Syrian descent and so might have had one. He tried to get around it by noting that some parents do circumcisions for hygiene reasons, but it nearly backfired on him because the interrogator hadn't heard of the practice and so initially believed him to be lying to protect an Israeli operative. It's "held," but not necessarily true. The most convincing evidence comes from a study done in India a couple of decades ago, where hygiene is different than is standard in the US. A high school health book is not necessarily the best place to learn about circumcision. The benefits are especially limited in this culture, and the risk carried in terms of potential damage do not really help validate it. I'm just saying that the notion has enough legs to where even the odd textbook or two carries it and it's crossed the ocean into Europe.
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Post by Bojangles on Mar 14, 2009 4:00:16 GMT -5
Why am I not shocked by that? Oh yeah, because this is one of the African countries in which children are murdered for being "witches" and "wizards." Like the same thing didn't happen in the US during development. They're poor . That means poverty is rampant. That means crime is rampant. That means that the privately owned rent-a-cop from Armaguard and Brute Force that 'assist' the almost non-existant police protect the white owners of the country, but don't actually enforce the law. And, to be frank, it's Morgan Tsvangeri's fault. We can't just say "Oh these blacks, they're just tribal. You know, naturally violent." Bullshit. They're violent because they're poor, they're poor because we make them poor. And because of the ANC. Apartheid never left South Africa, it changed shape. I'm really not sure that i have followed this conversation properly so please correct me if I am wrong or if you were being sarcastic and I didn't pick it up. But I just wanted to clarify your statement. Morgan Tsvangarai is leader of the MDC and the prime minister of Zimbabwe. The MDC is Zanu-PF main opposition party. Zanu PF is Robert Mugabe's party. Zimbabwe is not South Africa. The ANC is the governing political party in South Africa. The ANC has no political power in Zimbabwe at all. Possibly the confusion arose because Thabo Mbeki, the former president of South Africa and the ANC was in charge of negotiations between Tsvangarai and Mugabe. Yes, those negotiations that broke down about 20 times a week. I'm sorry if I am telling you something you already know, but I just felt your comment was a little ambiguous. Regarding the OP, rape is very very common in South Africa. Appallingly and shockingly so. Women get raped for being lesbian, for wearing short skirts, for wearing pants, because they're a virgin, because they are not a virgin. Unfortunately women to a large degree are seen as commodities and sex is seen as something to be afraid of or to just submit to. Not really related to the OP but a while ago there was an increased incidence of women going to the doctor with strange genital problems and infections. It turned out that many of the problems were related to "dry sex" where women would do their best to avoid becoming lubricated during arousal because many of their partners believed that it meant they had been sleeping around. Everything from newspapers to bicarbonate of soda was used and resulted in terrible infections and problems. So, yeah. Great stuff. On a personal note it makes me very sad because South Africa is my home and I love living here, but the crime rate is shocking, the attitude towards women is shocking and corruption is shocking. The good news is that there are many wonderful organisations out there devoted to protecting the innocents and educating people. Unfortunately with problems and poverty so rampant, more of these organisations are needed. Sorry for the ramble, I get a little emotional when I think about these things because they upset me very much.
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Post by Vene on Mar 14, 2009 8:55:53 GMT -5
This thread makes me think violent thoughts. Very violent thoughts. Do they involve a rifle, lots of ammo, and enough firepower to peel the paint off your house and give your family a permanent orange afro? If so, you are approaching what I would want to do to theM, ALTHOUGH I'd sooner go for giving them a lot less dignity in death... I like how you think. Although, I was thinking more along the lines of rope and many very sharp objects.
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Post by malicious_bloke on Mar 14, 2009 8:57:49 GMT -5
See, this is why we need some rich, powerful secular organization in Africa to help disseminate helpful information such as: -Sexual orientation is unchangeable. -There are no such things as witches or wizards or warlocks. -There is no such thing as black magic. -Female genital mutilation (a.k.a. "female circumcision") is a crime and serves no medical purpose. -Condoms can help prevent the spread of AIDS and HIV; having sex with a virgin only spreads the disease further. Yeah but then you'd be arrested for racism. You can't criticise them, it's just their culture
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 14, 2009 10:33:34 GMT -5
I'm just saying that the notion has enough legs to where even the odd textbook or two carries it and it's crossed the ocean into Europe. That would be great, if it was remotely meaningful.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Mar 14, 2009 12:47:47 GMT -5
See, this is why we need some rich, powerful secular organization in Africa to help disseminate helpful information such as: -Sexual orientation is unchangeable. -There are no such things as witches or wizards or warlocks. -There is no such thing as black magic. -Female genital mutilation (a.k.a. "female circumcision") is a crime and serves no medical purpose. -Condoms can help prevent the spread of AIDS and HIV; having sex with a virgin only spreads the disease further. Yeah but then you'd be arrested for racism. You can't criticise them, it's just their culture Actually I was accused of being racist in this very thread But as I said already, superstitious & magical thinking aren't unique to Africa, but it poses a dire threat to their political and economic stability.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Mar 14, 2009 12:55:16 GMT -5
Everything Bojangles said pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. (Except that I'm not South African.) And I agree with DevilsChaplain's original point, which is that crimes like this occur because many of the people are poor, ignorant, and superstitious, not because they're 'less than' Europeans or Americans for being black. Education is the key in helping to end these crimes. It's an all-around sick situation, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.
When you have a population that lives in poverty, has little to no education, and very little in the way of legal help, you get a people who are profoundly superstitious. You get a people who believe that rape will 'cure' lesbianism (and I'm sure some of the men committing these rapes don't really believe that and just use it as an excuse or a rationalization, but I'm also sure that many of them DO believe it's true), that having sex with virgins will cure HIV/AIDS, and that witches and black magic are very real and effect their lives. It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with poverty and a lack of education.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Death on Mar 14, 2009 13:50:31 GMT -5
Bojangles, stay safe.
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Post by Bojangles on Mar 14, 2009 14:50:08 GMT -5
Everything Bojangles said pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. (Except that I'm not South African.) And I agree with DevilsChaplain's original point, which is that crimes like this occur because many of the people are poor, ignorant, and superstitious, not because they're 'less than' Europeans or Americans for being black. Education is the key in helping to end these crimes. It's an all-around sick situation, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. When you have a population that lives in poverty, has little to no education, and very little in the way of legal help, you get a people who are profoundly superstitious. You get a people who believe that rape will 'cure' lesbianism (and I'm sure some of the men committing these rapes don't really believe that and just use it as an excuse or a rationalization, but I'm also sure that many of them DO believe it's true), that having sex with virgins will cure HIV/AIDS, and that witches and black magic are very real and effect their lives. It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with poverty and a lack of education. Just my two cents. What you said is quite true. Often the lies are perpetuated by people in high places. I don't know if anyone remembers a while ago when SA's former health minister told people that eating African potatoes and garlic would cure AIDS. We were the laughing stock (as we should have been) especially considering the pandemic proportions of AIDS here. But when the health minister is saying this and you have a largely uneducated population, many will believe the authority. It's the same with these myths about women, rape, sex, virgins etc. While I am positive that often it is just used as an excuse to rape or abuse, if someone with a little authority says that's it is a good idea, there are people who would believe it. Like you said, education is key. Keeping people ignorant only leads to more crime and more ignorance. Luckily sex education and information about protecting yourself, what your rights are and the like is becoming a bigger part of schooling (of course then we have the fundies who scream about sex education in schools). I really commend the people that do this and even though I accept my limitations and know that I, personally, would be useless in educating children, we always do what we can to help such as donating money, books, clothing, food etc to schools, orphanges, child welfare organisations, animal rescue organisations etc etc. It's so important for us to invest in the next generation in the hope that this prejudice, intolerance and crime can be overcome. And Death, thank you for your concern, I appreciate it
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Post by Caitshidhe on Mar 14, 2009 15:15:06 GMT -5
I think I remember hearing about the potatoes and garlic thing, but it was a long time ago. It CERTAINLY doesn't help an already largely superstitious and ignorant population when the people in charge are the ones encouraging, or worse actually disseminating, the false information--turning a blind eye to the blatant crimes occurring as a result of the misinformation or total lack of information is just as bad.
It's good that steps are being taken--except it IS rather a very long-term solution and for the victims of crimes RIGHT NOW, it doesn't do much for their situation. They've already been victimized and violated. It kind of sucks. Still, at least they've realized that education is the key in stopping these things from happening and are working on it. I have a friend who is originally from SA, and she's told me some horror stories. >.<
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Post by Sandafluffoid on Mar 14, 2009 15:47:18 GMT -5
God, it's just so hard to believe that this sort of thing can happen anywhere in the world, that humans can be so stupid and hateful. I just wish there was a quick fix, but I guess it's gonna take a long time to fix; an uneducated population will never elect someone to educate them.
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