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Post by devilschaplain2 on Mar 15, 2009 23:31:18 GMT -5
Well what I was saying was that it was an invalid comparison from the get-go, when Current said:
1.) Current's situation is hypothetical. We don't punish people for expressing the idea that greed is good, or even that bankrobbing is good. Both of those are protected under law in America. 2.) Saying that being greedy is good is an idea. Saying that the Holocaust never happened or that Jews and blacks are inferior is an idea, and a racist one at that. Going out and murdering a Jewish person is an act motivated by racism, however. 3.) In other countries (mainly European) such as Germany, racist expressions are penalized, which is the closest you can come to penalizing racism itself as you can get. In essence, you're being punished for an idea you hold (a warped, evil idea mind you, but an idea nonetheless). I'm distinguishing between ideas and acts, and if you're being punished for a belief you express without incitement or action, it can be said that a person can be punished for being a racist.
I agree with essentially everything you said. I feel that the best way to counter racist ideas lies in John Stuart Mill's "marketplace of ideas"; that is, we should all be free to express our ideas without fear of reprisal from the government (and argue against ideas we find abhorrent), so long as those ideas are not direct incitements to violence against another person (as defined by our numerous Supreme Court decisions).
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Post by booley on Mar 16, 2009 9:09:12 GMT -5
Wow. I mean, the horror of rape aside, do they really think forcing sex on a lesbian will make her more prone to liking men? It's not about "liking men". It's about terrorizing and punishing someone who deviated from the "norm" It's also about how S. Africa has been struggling since the end of Apartheid and when people are insecure, a lot of them become these uber fascist assholes. I think it gives them meaning and a sense of control. Sigh, and we had such high hopes for S. Africa.
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Post by booley on Mar 16, 2009 9:19:14 GMT -5
.... What about in Iran? The government can't execute a virgin woman under Sharia law, so instead they have the woman raped by the Iranian Guard to avoid that loophole. Obviously they believe in that law or they wouldn't have found a way around it, and they do actually believe that by doing so they are sending her to Hell. Not sure violating the spirit of the law, even if you follow the letter of it is really believing in the law itself. However I think you are both right. These guys do rationalize what they want to do. But they also like the appearance of propriety.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Mar 16, 2009 13:54:35 GMT -5
Saying that being greedy is good is an idea. Saying that the Holocaust never happened or that Jews and blacks are inferior is an idea, and a racist one at that. Going out and murdering a Jewish person is an act motivated by racism, however. It's an idea, and a idea with a motivation which is virtually always racist, but not in itself a racist idea. It is possible to deny the Holocaust simply because you are completely misinformed about the subject, not because you are an anti-semite (I'm not sure anyone actually does, but it's a possibility). And in any case, it is at best only one form of racism. You can still go in public saying you believe white people are superior to black people and not get arrested. Therefore, racism, in itself, is not a crime. One idea with racist motivations is. There is a difference.
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Post by Julian on Mar 16, 2009 14:40:48 GMT -5
Saying that being greedy is good is an idea. Saying that the Holocaust never happened or that Jews and blacks are inferior is an idea, and a racist one at that. Going out and murdering a Jewish person is an act motivated by racism, however. It's an idea, and a idea with a motivation which is virtually always racist, but not in itself a racist idea. It is possible to deny the Holocaust simply because you are completely misinformed about the subject, not because you are an anti-semite (I'm not sure anyone actually does, but it's a possibility). And in any case, it is at best only one form of racism. You can still go in public saying you believe white people are superior to black people and not get arrested. Therefore, racism, in itself, is not a crime. One idea with racist motivations is. There is a difference. Ummmm, Denying something you don't have the first clue about isn't exactly denying something, it's merely proving you're an idiot. Holocaust Denial (the crime) is about categorically and publicly stating as fact that firstly it never happened, which in itself is bad enough, but secondly that then obviously, the Jews are making the whole thing up to discredit Naziism, or to wheedle the state of Israel out of the United Nations...
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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 16, 2009 23:44:54 GMT -5
Ah, of course, because all the people I've named were black. You caught me, I'm really a member of the Ku Klux Klan and superstitious really was my code word for black. See, look at the definition of superstitious: –adjective 1. of the nature of, characterized by, or proceeding from superstition: superstitious fears. 2. pertaining to or connected with superstition: superstitious legends. 3. believing in, full of, or influenced by superstition. See how for all three definitions it says "being black"? See that? You totally called me on my racism. That's why it's a code word, not just a word. You can't say "black people are naturally inferior, that's why Africa has more crime than anywhere else". You have to say it sideways: "'swarthy gentlemen/illegal immigrants' are 'less civilised/refuse to intergrate' so they need 'better policing/stronger borders'" Technically, that statement isn't racist, but it is. Another is 'exotic' of Pat Robertson. It doesn't mean 'black' as such, but, in another very important way, it means black. "Education" can be a code word. I don't have a clue whether you are personally racist. I don't think that you are. But you did just use a racial code word. Perhaps without noticing it: it is possible, my mum does it all the time. Our cultures slide them in everywhere. Let's see, most criminals arrested in the US are either "native"-born blacks (and frankly, the criminals overruning the ghettos and inner cities is/are a WHOLE other issue) or fucking MEXICANS. Yes, MEXICANS. You know, they just sneak across the border, take OUR jobs, and use OUR resources, to send OUR MONEY TO MEXICO -- all while breaking our laws. And then they have the NERVE to complain when they're arrested and deported. The Mexicans who come here LEGALLY, well, they become AMERICANS, so... I'm NOT a racist; just a REALIST.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Mar 17, 2009 0:07:31 GMT -5
That's why it's a code word, not just a word. You can't say "black people are naturally inferior, that's why Africa has more crime than anywhere else". You have to say it sideways: "'swarthy gentlemen/illegal immigrants' are 'less civilised/refuse to intergrate' so they need 'better policing/stronger borders'" Technically, that statement isn't racist, but it is. Another is 'exotic' of Pat Robertson. It doesn't mean 'black' as such, but, in another very important way, it means black. "Education" can be a code word. I don't have a clue whether you are personally racist. I don't think that you are. But you did just use a racial code word. Perhaps without noticing it: it is possible, my mum does it all the time. Our cultures slide them in everywhere. Let's see, most criminals arrested in the US are either "native"-born blacks (and frankly, the criminals overruning the ghettos and inner cities is/are a WHOLE other issue) or fucking MEXICANS. Yes, MEXICANS. You know, they just sneak across the border, take OUR jobs, and use OUR resources, to send OUR MONEY TO MEXICO -- all while breaking our laws. And then they have the NERVE to complain when they're arrested and deported. The Mexicans who come here LEGALLY, well, they become AMERICANS, so... I'm NOT a racist; just a REALIST. They took our jobs! I do apologize if they ruined your lucrative fruit-picking business.
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 17, 2009 0:20:43 GMT -5
I love that people are still complaining about Mexicans taking our jobs when our companies are GIVING jobs to India and the likes. Seems kinda silly. And that's before factoring in the slanted justice system, etc.
Myself, I'm praying for a pisstake.
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Post by Death on Mar 17, 2009 2:51:05 GMT -5
That's why it's a code word, not just a word. You can't say "black people are naturally inferior, that's why Africa has more crime than anywhere else". You have to say it sideways: "'swarthy gentlemen/illegal immigrants' are 'less civilised/refuse to intergrate' so they need 'better policing/stronger borders'" Technically, that statement isn't racist, but it is. Another is 'exotic' of Pat Robertson. It doesn't mean 'black' as such, but, in another very important way, it means black. "Education" can be a code word. I don't have a clue whether you are personally racist. I don't think that you are. But you did just use a racial code word. Perhaps without noticing it: it is possible, my mum does it all the time. Our cultures slide them in everywhere. Let's see, most criminals arrested in the US are either "native"-born blacks (and frankly, the criminals overruning the ghettos and inner cities is/are a WHOLE other issue) or fucking MEXICANS. Yes, MEXICANS. You know, they just sneak across the border, take OUR jobs, and use OUR resources, to send OUR MONEY TO MEXICO -- all while breaking our laws. And then they have the NERVE to complain when they're arrested and deported. The Mexicans who come here LEGALLY, well, they become AMERICANS, so... I'm NOT a racist; just a REALIST. thanks for the laugh
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Post by booley on Mar 17, 2009 7:57:04 GMT -5
Let's see, most criminals arrested in the US are either "native"-born blacks (and frankly, the criminals overruning the ghettos and inner cities is/are a WHOLE other issue) or fucking MEXICANS. Yes, MEXICANS. You know, they just sneak across the border, take OUR jobs, and use OUR resources, to send OUR MONEY TO MEXICO -- all while breaking our laws. And then they have the NERVE to complain when they're arrested and deported. The Mexicans who come here LEGALLY, well, they become AMERICANS, so... I'm NOT a racist; just a REALIST. Sigh, how many times do we need to go over how dumb and simplistic this is? How it either distorts facts or makes them up entirely? How many times does someone here need to pull out the study after study that shows blacks are sent to prison more because Blacks tend to get pulled over and given harsher sentences, not because they are necessarily doing more crimes? Or that the vast majority of "mexicans" protesting actually are Americans, born here. (and no they aren't all anchor babies) Why is it so hard to figure out that if you are disparaging an entire ethnic group with claims that keep failing when scrutinized, then yeah you're probably saying something racist. Gads, I hope I am just not getting it and you are actually a POE because this line of BS has gotten so fucking old.
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 17, 2009 10:32:02 GMT -5
It's also worth noting that the biggest "growth area" in prison is drug related. Since we slant the sentences so possession and use of drugs more commonly used by black people lead to much harsher sentences, it kind of makes sense that we'd see more black offenders. That dovetails with the above statement.
piss take or not, it's kind of funny how Wal-Mart is never blamed by these people complaining about the loss of jobs. Or any other company or business in the United States who willingly hire these illegals so they can avoid paying minimum wage, benefits, etc.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Mar 17, 2009 14:01:49 GMT -5
It's also worth noting that the biggest "growth area" in prison is drug related. Since we slant the sentences so possession and use of drugs more commonly used by black people lead to much harsher sentences, it kind of makes sense that we'd see more black offenders. That dovetails with the above statement. piss take or not, it's kind of funny how Wal-Mart is never blamed by these people complaining about the loss of jobs. Or any other company or business in the United States who willingly hire these illegals so they can avoid paying minimum wage, benefits, etc. Yeah our justice system and our media both do an excellent job discriminating. Did you ever see this story after Hurricane Katrina? Fucking ridiculous...
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