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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 13:22:57 GMT -5
Just a bit of amusement (well, I thought it was amusing) related to the whole demons-cause-illness thing.
I have an Intro to Health Occupations course I’m taking as part of the pre-requisites to the RN program at my college. In my textbook, there’s a Table titled “Historical Events of Health Care in Ancient Times”, which lists some of the prevalent medical beliefs/practices of various ancient societies.
Lo and behold, what should the first box list?
4000 B.C.- 3000 B.C. (Primitive Times)
* Believed that illness and disease were caused by supernatural spirits and demons
* Tribal witch doctors treated illness with ceremonies to drive out evil spirits
* Average life span was 20 years
Hmmm... why does that seem so familiar? Oh well, at least we’ve moved beyond boring a hole in people’s skulls to treat insanity and epilepsy.
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 13:24:05 GMT -5
I used to be (very) gung ho about only adopting animals from shelters, or strays. Until I actually sat down and thought about having a family. There is no way a shelter is going to know if an animal that is brought in will be good with children under all circumstances. Now, obviously, the same can hold true with breeder dogs. But raising a dog around children, and training them to hold up under stress, means that you stand a much better chance of having a dog (of any breed) that is very good with children.
Our Dane (which was my wife's prior to us meeting) was raised around her neice and nephew, and trained to hold up under stress. I have seen the nephew (now 5) walk up to her and grab her jowls, she just looked at us. Our current dog, who is still working on patience training, is very good with our daughter, to the point where he get very concerned when I'm burping her.
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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 13:26:01 GMT -5
I used to be (very) gung ho about only adopting animals from shelters, or strays. Until I actually sat down and thought about having a family. There is no way a shelter is going to know if an animal that is brought in will be good with children under all circumstances. Now, obviously, the same can hold true with breeder dogs. But raising a dog around children, and training them to hold up under stress, means that you stand a much better chance of having a dog (of any breed) that is very good with children. That's where animal foster homes with kids come in handy. And pre-adoption visits between the animal(s) and the kids. |
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 13:35:33 GMT -5
That's where animal foster homes with kids come in handy. And pre-adoption visits between the animal(s) and the kids. Handy yes, but not foolproof. Foster homes with children are good, but some situations just do not come up. Like a toddler pulling a tail, or pulling themselves up by the fur. To be honest, it may never happen in real life, but it is a real possibility. I have a buddy who had a German for 7 years. Before that, it was his brother's dog for 4 years and well trained. But he came from a shelter originally and they just didn't know...one day, the brother's son (2 or 3 years old)was playing on the floor near the dog in a spot and in a way that he had a million times before. The parents were watching the kid and the dog, etc. But this time, the child decided that he wanted to try the dog's food. Before they could even react, the dog had bitten the child in the face. Luckily, my buddy was able to take the dog in and keep him from being put down, and that dog never did anything bad again. But, had they known, and had the dog been socialized to share from a young age, it may not have happened. I, personally, force my dogs to share. I will take food from their bowl while they eat, etc (it's based upon positive training methods, so no worries). My wife's nephew did the same thing at 3 to Ella (our Dane). He walked up, took food from her bowl while she was eating, and stuck it in his mouth (he's kind of an odd child). She backed off, sat down and looked at my wife for guidance. Add in the fact that we were actually turned down at several shelters because we were planning on having children within the next 8 years(this was before we were even married, so not yet 'spectin). |
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 13:38:33 GMT -5
By the way, sorry for taking this topic farther off track. but hey, it did stay on for like 7 pages, which has to be a record around here.
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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 14:01:57 GMT -5
Bezron, you're right that proper socialization from birth can reduce the likelihood of those types of things from occurring, but I think it's also based a large part on just the personality of the animal and/or the situation on any given day. I have friends with dogs who've had their tails or ears pulled, etc by children and dealt calmly with it 99 times in the row. However, sometimes you get the dog when it's in the wrong mood or had a bad day or they’re just fed up with it and on that 100th time, they'll nip the kid. I also have a friend whose dog has just always been finicky about that type of thing (it’s a little lap dog, which is probably why) She was a breeder dog but she’ll chew the shit out of you if you make the wrong move.
There’s also many people who buy puppies from breeders and, depending on how old the puppies are, they wouldn’t have had time to get any significant socialization in with the breeder’s kids. Not to mention there are breeders who don’t have kids and breeders who have kids but don’t let their children around be the dogs, etc etc.
All I’m saying is that breeder dogs are no more inherently likely to be good with kids or properly socialized with kids vs. shelter dogs. It just depends on the specific breeder in question.
Also- I'm fine with the off-track-ness. I believe in letting the conversation take you where it takes you.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 18, 2009 14:15:18 GMT -5
lightmelon
since i have utterly failed as you say then tell me what it is that you do see.
as far as believing it is mental illness or not is a moot point. I believe demons cause mental illness. however the definition of mental illness does not take in concideration the fact of demonic activity so no i would not believe contrary to that.
i apologize if i sound disrespectful of you or your beliefs i am not trying to come off that way at all. we are both strong in our beliefs. i have not taken what you have said as disrespectful at all. i have taken it as someone who will not fall for anything someone that needs proof of what she believes which is admirable.
as for the demon on the head i meant as roots not a trunk. but could still be wrong on that as well. I believe there are a few demons mainly those of Shivas i believe that take residence sitting on the head. The one with the tentacles like roots is a demon who mimics being the tree of life. hence the roots like a tree.
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 14:19:41 GMT -5
Bezron, you're right that proper socialization from birth can reduce the likelihood of those types of things from occurring, but I think it's also based a large part on just the personality of the animal and/or the situation on any given day. I have friends with dogs who've had their tails or ears pulled, etc by children and dealt calmly with it 99 times in the row. However, sometimes you get the dog when it's in the wrong mood or had a bad day or they’re just fed up with it and on that 100th time, they'll nip the kid. I also have a friend whose dog has just always been finicky about that type of thing (it’s a little lap dog, which is probably why) She was a breeder dog but she’ll chew the shit out of you if you make the wrong move. There’s also many people who buy puppies from breeders and, depending on how old the puppies are, they wouldn’t have had time to get any significant socialization in with the breeder’s kids. Not to mention there are breeders who don’t have kids and breeders who have kids but don’t let their children around be the dogs, etc etc. All I’m saying is that breeder dogs are no more inherently likely to be good with kids or properly socialized with kids vs. shelter dogs. It just depends on the specific breeder in question. Also- I'm fine with the off-track-ness. I believe in letting the conversation take you where it takes you. I think there's a disconnect. I'm not saying that breeder dogs are any more inherently likely to be good with kids. I'm saying that with a breeder dog vs a shelter dog, YOU the owner have full control on the socialization. Dogs are just animals, after all. They tend to react instinctively to things unless taught not to. With a shelter dog, you just don't know what that dog has been taught, even if you go through full reconditioning (the German in my example above had). My dogs (actually, my parent's dogs too, which were technically mine) are conditioned to expect children to act erratically, and to look to their adult (me or my wife, in this case) for guidance. Still the possibility of issues arising, but I trust my abilities to train my dogs a lot more than I trust what some guy who gave their pet up did (usually, shelter dogs are not trained well beyond peeing outside, there are gems, but not many). Now, this is all a consideration for me, and may not be for you, if you are never going to have your dog around children (at least not children you care about), or have more trust in reconditioning. Things like that |
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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 14:31:40 GMT -5
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, although I don't appreciate the implication that if I allow a shelter dog around my children, I must not care about them.
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Post by tygerarmy on Sept 18, 2009 14:44:20 GMT -5
"The goggles they do nothing!" PETA is BULLSHIT!(I'd link to the episode but I can't at work so here is the wiki synopsis: Offers criticism toward the animal rights movement, and particular attention to the PETA organization and its ties with the ALF, an animal liberation group, classified by the FBI as a domestic terrorist organization.) As your resident PETA and ALF (if I had the chance) member on the floor, I'd like to say, you are the bull here >:3 HA! TAKE THAT! lmao. (and just for reference, every succesful rights or liberation movement has been considered terrorism over the course of history. American Revolution, Civil War, equality for women and blacks...ect. PETA does pretty much the right thing, and I'd fucking HELP ALF rescue animals from experimental factories and such. Burn the buildings? Sure. Maybe it'll get the message across that using animals to test hairspray or whatever isn't profitable or moral. And if not, it takes them outta the action for a bit.) And I do think human digestive systems are better suited to a herbavore type of diet, but not because apes are similar to us. I just think this because in reality we exhibit the same internal systems as basic herbavores. here, read all this. I found it interesting. www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htmAnd valsa I've totally tried playing LoZ songs on there but alas, I suck balls at ocarina skillz. I see PETA the same way I see the anit-abortion activists. I have to do research on ALF I am not familar with them. Fur is Murder! Duh, but if you don't like fur don't where it, leave the people who do alone. Abuse of animals is wrong I'm against animal testing against animal testingbut as lonelocust pointed out PETA view pet ownershipship as against the animals rights, they are against neutering of pets and they kill strays and other animals. In nature animals eat other animals, humans are animals. They eat animals and get pissed off when they are eaten by others animals and then go out and kill a bunch of said animal. But humans are not carnivores or vegitarians they are omnivores. We eat everything, even disgusting fast foods and over priced chain coffees. As for what's better, it's not my job to tell anyone what's better. People can eat whatever they want. I remember someone posted and article where I guy let another guy eat him, I may be against that but that's about it. |
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 14:45:47 GMT -5
Wasn't implying that at all, and I apologize for appearing to do so. The implication is that you may not take these things into the same consideration as I do. The "at least not children you care about" was more comedic license than anything else.
What I am saying here is that these are the things that I worry about and take into consideration when it comes to dogs, but other may feel different. And PETA tends to be pushy assholes about it.
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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 15:09:31 GMT -5
but as lonelocust pointed out PETA view pet ownershipship as against the animals rights, they are against neutering of pets and they kill strays and other animals. PETA isn't against pet ownership and, according to their own website, they strongly recommend you fix your pets and would consider you an irresponsible owner if you didn't (and I'd agree) The people going around advocating killing strays and other animals before letting them become pets appear to be radical fringe groups, not mainstream PETA. Wasn't implying that at all, and I apologize for appearing to do so. No problem, I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion. I tend to debate with a lot of assholes who like to get in subtle digs that sound a lot like what you wrote. I think I'm just not used to people who are as calm and mature about differing opinions as everyone here is. The Internet- Where maturity is the exception, not the rule. |
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 15:19:16 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'll get my digs in where they are deserved, but this was just a case of poor wording. I knew even as I posted it that it could be taken the wrong way, but couldn't think how to rephrase it. I have a massive cold + allergies (ragweed...or maybe demons) at the moment, so my normally sludgy head is downright treacly.
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Post by valsa on Sept 18, 2009 15:23:11 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'll get my digs in where they are deserved, but this was just a case of poor wording. I knew even as I posted it that it could be taken the wrong way, but couldn't think how to rephrase it. I have a massive cold + allergies (ragweed...or maybe demons) at the moment, so my normally sludgy head is downright treacly. The cold AND the allergies would probably be from demons. You need some holy chicken noodle soup. But not from Campbell's. They support Teh Ghey. Feel better. |
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 15:29:11 GMT -5
I keep telling my wife to make me some, but somehow she gets out of the kitchen...
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