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Post by kiwiandrew on Apr 7, 2009 21:47:26 GMT -5
What are you trying to say? Do works count or not? Because the only two Christians I can stand actually believe very strongly in works. I encourage you to read the book of James. What he is saying is that we are saved by faith, but faith without works isn't true faith. So it's not the works that saves us, it's trusting Jesus. The works are more of an outward sign of your internal faith. Think of it like a patient with an illness (you guy's will love me comparing faith to an illness but i'm a medical student so that's why i think like this - I'm certainly not saying faith is like an illness, except that in the way i describe). Anyway bugs get inside the body and cause sickness. The patient will have a bunch of symptoms that help a doctor diagnose what the sickness is. The symptoms themselves aren't the sickness - they are a result of the body's response to the bugs. So in a similar way - when you have true repentent faith in Jesus Christ, the "symptoms" of that will be the good works that follow. If you have the "symptoms" and not the faith, it's like when a disease looks like something it's not - and is therefore often misdiagnosed. On the other hand if you say you have the faith but no symptoms to show for it - well you don't really have the faith... I hope that makes sense? Sorry I'm in a hurry but let me know if you need further clarification. In love, KiwiAndrew.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 7, 2009 21:48:01 GMT -5
Not to derail the thread, but this part doesn't make any sense to me: So, did nobody go to heaven before Jesus, even if they did worship God? Because if Jesus died for All mankind's sins but God STILL punishes people by sending them to hell then Jesus' death was completely pointless. Yes? Yes well they'll use the whole "well Jebus died for OUR sins, but definitely not gays/Atheists/Muslims/devil worshippers sins', eh?" You have to be saved before Jebus' death applies to you. Either he died for everyone's sins or he didn't. So fundies, which is it?
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Post by John E on Apr 7, 2009 21:51:36 GMT -5
EVERY fundie and many non-fundies assumes that if you have a problem with Christians or Christianity, it must be because you're just ignorant of what "real" Christianity is (the funny part is, each sect thinks theirs is the "real" Christianity and all the other one are giving us non-Christians the wrong idea). And then of course, the email goes on to parrot the same "everyone's a sinner, blah blah blah" diatribe we've all heard a million times. There are a lot of people who think they believe in the true religion. That's why I said that instead of attacking weak, flawed people - look at what the bible says if you want to argue against Christianity. How do you know which "fundie" is the "real" christian - match what they say with what the bible says. There's no other document to base our faith on. There are things in the Bible that can be debated, but what it says about salvation is pretty plain. Read the book of Romans - its a good summary. In Love, KiwiAndrew. Trouble is, every sect bases their beliefs on the bible and have an interpretation to make the text support their beliefs. Besides, this site isn't about attacking Christianity. It's about mocking stupid and/or bigoted people. That's why it's called Fundies Say the Darndest Things, not Christianity says the darndest things. Even some of our regular members are christians.
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Post by Lady Renae on Apr 7, 2009 23:05:29 GMT -5
What are you trying to say? Do works count or not? Because the only two Christians I can stand actually believe very strongly in works. I encourage you to read the book of James. What he is saying is that we are saved by faith, but faith without works isn't true faith. So it's not the works that saves us, it's trusting Jesus. The works are more of an outward sign of your internal faith. Think of it like a patient with an illness (you guy's will love me comparing faith to an illness but i'm a medical student so that's why i think like this - I'm certainly not saying faith is like an illness, except that in the way i describe). Anyway bugs get inside the body and cause sickness. The patient will have a bunch of symptoms that help a doctor diagnose what the sickness is. The symptoms themselves aren't the sickness - they are a result of the body's response to the bugs. So in a similar way - when you have true repentent faith in Jesus Christ, the "symptoms" of that will be the good works that follow. If you have the "symptoms" and not the faith, it's like when a disease looks like something it's not - and is therefore often misdiagnosed. On the other hand if you say you have the faith but no symptoms to show for it - well you don't really have the faith... I hope that makes sense? Sorry I'm in a hurry but let me know if you need further clarification. In love, KiwiAndrew. I admit to being fascinated by your analogy, especially keeping in mind the "some but not all" clause in symptomology (sic?), which also corresponds with the concept that not every member of the faithful expresses their faith in the same way, though there are some distinct similarities and a general grouping of outward signals that tend to be present more often than not. However, your analogy is also heavily flawed due to the fact that there are a number of illnesses that may never present as expected (if they present at all) but still affect the patient. To the best of my layperson's knowledge, this does not apply to standalone viral infections (barring of course the presence of autoimmune or other such underlying deficiency), except in the case of a carrier, which also follows, but I'm delving a little too deeply here. If you're curious where my brain went with this, feel free to ask. I'll divulge. In any event, I request that you read my response to your email, keeping in mind I was being primarily emulative rather than purely expressive, though a great many of my personal views and understandings are addressed within the space of my text. As a former Christian myself and an avid amateur religious scholar, I look forward to conversing with you.
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Post by ironbite on Apr 7, 2009 23:19:35 GMT -5
Welcome to Fundies dude.
Ironbite-we are not kind.
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Post by schizophonic on Apr 7, 2009 23:25:33 GMT -5
Welcome to Fundies dude. Ironbite-we are not kind. You'll have to forgive Ibby. He gets cranky when he hasn't been fed for a while.
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Post by antichrist on Apr 8, 2009 0:00:06 GMT -5
Didn't Ibby feed last night? It didn't come back.
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Post by ironbite on Apr 8, 2009 0:13:44 GMT -5
Ibby is correcting the hungry part as of right now.
Ironbite-microwave pizza is the win!
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Post by Trevelyan on Apr 8, 2009 1:38:23 GMT -5
5. So why doesn’t he just wipe out all the evil if he is so powerful and so good? Patience. God does not wish anyone to perish but all to come to know him. He does promise all throughout the Bible (old and new testaments) that he will come and judge the world. He will restore everything to it’s rightful place – the evil will be punished. So god allowed the extermination of millions of Jews on the off chance that the Nazi upper staff would realize they were doing a bad thing and ask his forgiveness? How is allowing millions of people to die, in fact for genocide to almost fully be carried out, on the off chance that a few people might come to him just?
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on Apr 8, 2009 1:49:31 GMT -5
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Post by chad sexington on Apr 8, 2009 4:09:38 GMT -5
Welcome to Fundies dude. Ironbite-we are not kind. You'll have to forgive Ibby. He gets cranky when he hasn't been fed for a while. For some reason I read 'fed' as 'fondled'
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Post by Vypernight on Apr 8, 2009 4:32:18 GMT -5
But this chunk: Is what always gets me. Sounds like an abusive parent more than a loving god. Clean your room like I told you or die and burn in hell. I'm far less than impressed with that concept. Then we get to this: So god loves us to kill someone, and keep killing us. But now we get to go to heaven if we do nothing but worship him and follow his rules. Again, sounds pretty damn abusive to me. You have good points here – I can see how God seems pretty abusive from your perspective. But there have been many biblical scholars who have grappled the same concept. I’m no expert but I’ll try and summarise the way I reconcile the ideas. One needs to understand justice and goodness to see why God would be trustworthy… my head’s a little clouded at the moment but I’ll try a sequence of logic using the arguments of christianity… 1. Does injustice exist? Yes - all over the place. 2. Why does injustice exist? Humanity’s rebellion against God’s just ways – love one another, do not murder, do not steal etc etc. 3. Is God Just? Yes, totally 4. How then can could he tolerate this injustice? To remain just, and good, God can’t allow evil to exist unpunished. That’s right, there’s certain things that God can’t do – otherwise he would cease to be God. He can’t do something that contradicts his character. “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong” Habbakkuk 1:13 5. So why doesn’t he just wipe out all the evil if he is so powerful and so good? Patience. God does not wish anyone to perish but all to come to know him. He does promise all throughout the Bible (old and new testaments) that he will come and judge the world. He will restore everything to it’s rightful place – the evil will be punished. “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 6. So when we get to heaven with no evil we’ll just sit and worship him forever? Well yes – but we won’t worship because he forces us to, we’ll worship because we will see him in all his glory and goodness and desire nothing else but to see him worshipped. There are other promises in heaven, we can’t fathom the beauty of it because we see worshipping God as a chore. Imagine if for eternity you got to do exactly what you wanted without hindrance or difficulty. Not even the most godly Christian can desire heaven that badly – it’s only coz we don’t recognise God for who he is. I encourage you to read 2 Peter chapter 3 and the book of Habakkuk: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapterThat’s all I’ve got for now… more soon. Thanks for reading. In love, KiwiAndrew. What about Exodus? God slaughters thousands of people for the evil deeds of one person. That's like a teacher, of a class with one disruptive student, pulling out a gun and slaughtering everyone but said student. If this is God's love, I want no part of it.
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Post by erictheblue on Apr 8, 2009 7:11:52 GMT -5
1. Does injustice exist? Yes - all over the place. 2. Why does injustice exist? Humanity’s rebellion against God’s just ways – love one another, do not murder, do not steal etc etc. 3. Is God Just? Yes, totally In Exodus 7-12, God sends Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to do miracles and ask Pharaoh to release the Israelites. Then when Pharaoh starts considering it, God hardens Pharaoh's heartand refuses to let Pharaoh release "His People." God keeps doing this through plague after plague, until finally God kills the first born of every Egyptian. Where is the justice there? Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go long before, had God not "hardened Pharaoh's heart" repeatedly. Also, where was the "justice" for the poor Egyptian farmer who lost his crops and herds because of God's actions? What did the common Egyptians have to do with letting the Israelites go? Why were they punished? Where is justice for them? Except God is supposed to be all-powerful, else why call Him God? God could easily prove His existance, if He chose to. Where are the widespread miracles from the Bible? Why are people starving, if God can bring quail and bread from Heaven? (Exodus 16) Why do people - including innocent children - die from disease if God can cure anything? (See the Gospels.) For eternity? How boring. Also, it shows God to be arrogant. Why else would He feel the need to create beings who want to do nothing but worship him. If He wanted that, He could come back to earth and get a dog. You just said all we would do is worship God. What if I want to do something else - like read a good book, or cuddle my dogs?
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 8, 2009 7:40:19 GMT -5
Hats off to Lady Renae and Redhunter. There's nothing quite so annoying as being lectured by a moron. Hey, thanks man.
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Post by schizophonic on Apr 8, 2009 9:15:20 GMT -5
Ibby is correcting the hungry part as of right now. Ironbite-microwave pizza is the win! Oh good, Then I can throw out your kibble. For some reason I read 'fed' as 'fondled' Woah woah, hold on, it's only my job to give him food. Did someoen forget his "milking?"
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