|
Post by xaria on Apr 8, 2009 14:46:25 GMT -5
looks like he was scared off. god, you need better champions:P
|
|
|
Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 8, 2009 17:01:26 GMT -5
Right, because no true Christian would say the sort of things that end up on this website....
|
|
|
Post by captainhooker on Apr 8, 2009 17:07:39 GMT -5
Right, because no true Christian would say the sort of things that end up on this website.... not like we've ever heard that one before
|
|
|
Post by ironbite on Apr 8, 2009 23:57:45 GMT -5
You'll have to forgive Ibby. He gets cranky when he hasn't been fed for a while. For some reason I read 'fed' as 'fondled' It can be both.
|
|
|
Post by kiwiandrew on Apr 9, 2009 3:30:51 GMT -5
looks like he was scared off. god, you need better champions:P Hey guys - I'm still here, and intend to give a response to most of your issues in good time - I apologise for the delay, I'm a medical student so pretty busy at the hospital and stuff. I'm also going away for a week and a bit so I won't have much internet access, but I intend to spend a fair bit of the time going through Lady Renae's critique and others to give you the biblical perspective on your objections. Sorry to keep you waiting - you guys are extremely devoted users! I'm afraid I can't respond with such efficiency, but I'll do my best to make it worth the wait. In love, KiwiAndrew.
|
|
|
Post by kiwiandrew on Apr 9, 2009 3:40:53 GMT -5
Yes well they'll use the whole "well Jebus died for OUR sins, but definitely not gays/Atheists/Muslims/devil worshippers sins', eh?" You have to be saved before Jebus' death applies to you. Either he died for everyone's sins or he didn't. So fundies, which is it? This idea of limited for unlimited atonement is debated among christians. That is, was Jesus death a sacrifice once for all, or was it only for God's chosen believers. What isn't debated so much, and quite clear in the gospel is that only those who trust in Jesus are saved by him (ie those who asked to be saved are saved). This is shown clearly in John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." I personally believe that Jesus death was for all the sins of the world - sufficient to take the punishment for any person (John 3:16), however we gain access to that through faith (ie trust) in him. It's like a bridge that has been built to heaven - it's not going to break, no matter how many people walk across, but you actually have to walk across. Hope this helps. Let me know if you're still confused. In love, KiwiAndrew
|
|
|
Post by kiwiandrew on Apr 9, 2009 3:47:52 GMT -5
I admit to being fascinated by your analogy, especially keeping in mind the "some but not all" clause in symptomology (sic?), which also corresponds with the concept that not every member of the faithful expresses their faith in the same way, though there are some distinct similarities and a general grouping of outward signals that tend to be present more often than not. However, your analogy is also heavily flawed due to the fact that there are a number of illnesses that may never present as expected (if they present at all) but still affect the patient. To the best of my layperson's knowledge, this does not apply to standalone viral infections (barring of course the presence of autoimmune or other such underlying deficiency), except in the case of a carrier, which also follows, but I'm delving a little too deeply here. If you're curious where my brain went with this, feel free to ask. I'll divulge. In any event, I request that you read my response to your email, keeping in mind I was being primarily emulative rather than purely expressive, though a great many of my personal views and understandings are addressed within the space of my text. As a former Christian myself and an avid amateur religious scholar, I look forward to conversing with you. Yeah, I kinda thought that up on the spot, so like analogies it has its downfalls - was thinking about atypical presentations of disease as I wrote... anyway I guess all i was trying to do was make the faith vs works thing understandable. And yes, I have read your extensive critique of my email, and that has been the main goal of mine to respond to, but as there is so much to say and I want to do it properly, I've only had a chance to pick at the 'easy stuff' so far on this post. I also look forward to conversing with you and finding out what it was that made you fall away. Have been and will continue to pray for you. Will be in touch soon. In love, KiwiAndrew.
|
|
|
Post by renaissanceblonde on Apr 9, 2009 4:04:09 GMT -5
Okay, if God is so great and wonderful, how come he won't perform a few miracles to convince everybody he exists?
|
|
|
Post by Redhunter on Apr 9, 2009 5:00:33 GMT -5
I also look forward to conversing with you and finding out what it was that made you fall away. Have been and will continue to pray for you. Will be in touch soon. In love, KiwiAndrew. As no one is born a christian but born atheist, it was this atheism that she 'fell away' from. I would say she was temporarily suckered in by christianity.
|
|
|
Post by Sandafluffoid on Apr 9, 2009 5:43:06 GMT -5
What are you trying to say? Do works count or not? Because the only two Christians I can stand actually believe very strongly in works. I encourage you to read the book of James. What he is saying is that we are saved by faith, but faith without works isn't true faith. So it's not the works that saves us, it's trusting Jesus. The works are more of an outward sign of your internal faith. Think of it like a patient with an illness (you guy's will love me comparing faith to an illness but i'm a medical student so that's why i think like this - I'm certainly not saying faith is like an illness, except that in the way i describe). Anyway bugs get inside the body and cause sickness. The patient will have a bunch of symptoms that help a doctor diagnose what the sickness is. The symptoms themselves aren't the sickness - they are a result of the body's response to the bugs. So in a similar way - when you have true repentent faith in Jesus Christ, the "symptoms" of that will be the good works that follow. If you have the "symptoms" and not the faith, it's like when a disease looks like something it's not - and is therefore often misdiagnosed. On the other hand if you say you have the faith but no symptoms to show for it - well you don't really have the faith... I hope that makes sense? Sorry I'm in a hurry but let me know if you need further clarification. In love, KiwiAndrew. But why oh why is it then so important to God that we believe in him, that we worship him even? Why if God is so chiefly concerned with our morality, and principally that we do not commit evil acts, does he then add this extra declaration that without faith we are automatically evil? I'm not going to claim that anyone is really morally perfect, because it is not true. But I would go so far as to say that the number of truly evil people is very few, I have never made a deliberate attempt to hurt anyone, and I often inconvenience myself to help others, and when I do upset someone or do something wrong I am genuinely repentant. Yet because I do not have faith, by your logic I would be considered evil and would be sent to hell? I can understand the idea of sending evil people to hell, but am I really an evil person? Why on earth should I have to worship god to be considered a good person? According to the bible my lack of faith would condemn me, so I have to ask you, do you honestly think I, and other 'virtuous heathens', as Dante put it, should be punished for eternity?
|
|
|
Post by Lady Renae on Apr 9, 2009 6:31:25 GMT -5
I also look forward to conversing with you and finding out what it was that made you fall away. Have been and will continue to pray for you. Will be in touch soon. In love, KiwiAndrew. As no one is born a christian but born atheist, it was this atheism that she 'fell away' from. I would say she was temporarily suckered in by christianity. More like shoved into it by my mother in one of her many attempts to make the courts like her better than my father during custody battles (his new wife was Jewish and a bit unstable). Heck, before the battles started, I'd never been to a church in my life, let alone prayed or even knew WHAT "god" was, let alone why I should worship one. Even then I kind of put God on the same level as Santa Claus. Ended up growing out of both, though one took longer than the other simply because my mother is very VERY good at teaching guilt, which is a lot of what keeping people Christian is all about.
|
|
|
Post by Vypernight on Apr 9, 2009 7:49:39 GMT -5
I also look forward to conversing with you and finding out what it was that made you fall away. Have been and will continue to pray for you. Will be in touch soon. In love, KiwiAndrew. No falling. I jumped. And I don't regret a moment of it.
|
|
|
Post by Sandafluffoid on Apr 9, 2009 7:58:08 GMT -5
I also look forward to conversing with you and finding out what it was that made you fall away. Have been and will continue to pray for you. Will be in touch soon. In love, KiwiAndrew. No falling. I jumped. And I don't regret a moment of it. I think for my part I just sat at the bottom of the metaphorical cliff, utterly convinced that I was at the top, whilst reading a newspaper about how the rocks at the bottom were really sharp. And then I realised I was sitting on one of the rocks and it wasn't very sharp at all. Note to self: Learn to make coherent allegories.
|
|
|
Post by Vene on Apr 9, 2009 11:25:22 GMT -5
This is shown clearly in John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." Dude, the vast majority of us have read your little book. Even those of us who haven't read the thing cover to cover are very familiar and well-versed in it. You say you're a med student, that means you should have training in the sciences, right? That means you should know a little bit about logical reasoning, right? Do you know how the burden of proof works? You're the one claiming the Bible is right. Prove it. Without that it has as much validity as, say, the Bvagavad Gita or the Koran. You dismiss these books, so do we. Because there is no evidence in favor of them. If you have some objective evidence, by all means share it. Until then, everything you type here is a waste of time. Put up or shut up.
|
|
|
Post by John E on Apr 9, 2009 11:54:29 GMT -5
personally believe that Jesus death was for all the sins of the world - sufficient to take the punishment for any person (John 3:16), however we gain access to that through faith (ie trust) in him. It's like a bridge that has been built to heaven - it's not going to break, no matter how many people walk across, but you actually have to walk across. I personally believe that isn't the case, that Jesus, if he existed at all, was a human being the same as any other (or maybe several people who's lives and teachings were patched together to make the mythic figure of the gospels). I mean no offense, but as long as we're stating our personal beliefs, I'll let you know mine.
|
|