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Post by Bluefinger on May 25, 2011 9:28:22 GMT -5
What troubles me most is that they kept saying they were letting the child "choose". I know what they meant but I would argue that one of the largest stumbling blocks in the path of getting recognition for the rights of the non-heteronormatives of the world is the mistaken belief that that it is a choice or lifestyle. It bugs me when people trying to fight a problem from one angle end up reinforcing another angle. It may not be much of a 'choice' per se, but more letting the child adopt a role that is most comfortable for zir. The fact that it might turn out the child fits into more heteronormative roles at the end of the childhood, simply due to it being more common, is irrelevant. Plus, it really shouldn't matter if it was a choice. Also (to this the rest of the thread, not directly at you Norris), I want to point out that just because the child is not being forced into a particular role does not mean ze will be left confused by the matter when exposed to other people. I wasn't brought up to be religious, the matter of religion was not forced upon me and for the most part, it was a non-issue within the family environment. I even was aware of my parent's particular religious beliefs. I was still exposed to religion through interactions of other people, the culture I lived in, etc, but all that did was give me a different perspective on the matter. The end result, which was what my parents intended, was that I made my own mind on how perceive religion and whether I joined a particular one or not. I don't see how this is really different, except with gender roles. And I don't see how the child will be confused by this. The child will be exposed to society one way or another, and zir upbringing will simply give a different perspective on the matter of gender and identity to the child. Also, in light of the article, the fact that sex is lumped with gender so often is because for the most part, the two correlate with each other most of the time. So the parents not divulging their child's sex to other people is a smart move if not forcing particular gender expectations on their child is the aim. |
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on May 25, 2011 11:09:34 GMT -5
I think if it's done right it might be a good way to let the child spend their formative years. I'd let the child know what they are if they ask, and basically just not make it obvious to other people. But I wouldn't push it past about 5. Once they're going into school they should have a gender just to fit in and form normal social skills. People tend to rush in with the sanctity of human dignity and an almost religious reverence for children and babies... but if experiments like this were never done, we wouldn't learn much about ourselves. The goddamn kid knows zir own gender and sex, the immediate family just isn't telling other people. Well that's exactly what I mean. Although a 2 year old might not understand genders and ask about his or her pee-pee parts. The kid should know... but by keeping it ambiguous to people outside the family, it reduces the gender-biased expectations coming in from the outside world.  |
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on May 25, 2011 11:12:23 GMT -5
btw what's everyone's preferred set of gender ambiguous pronouns? I only use 'it' when I don't know what a gender-ambiguous or transsexual person wants to be called. I know some people consider this derogatory, but I don't intend it that way. An infant in the womb is called 'it' before the parents know its gender, and they don't suddenly love the baby more when they find out.
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Post by katz on May 25, 2011 11:31:07 GMT -5
Like everyone else, I'm more concerned with the whole unschooling thing. The problem with letting kids decide what they want to do all the time is that life, from work to driving, doesn't really work that way.
I just think there needs to be a gender neutral singular pronoun so I never have to type s/he or he or she at my shitty summer job.
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on May 25, 2011 12:09:17 GMT -5
I don't even really understand the unschooling thing, so I'm not touching on it. From the brief description it sounds like how my mom and I interacted outside of school - as in, I'd go to public school, and learn what the school wanted me to, and then I'd go home and my mom would teach me what I wanted to learn.
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Post by Vene on May 25, 2011 12:15:39 GMT -5
I don't even really understand the unschooling thing, so I'm not touching on it. From the brief description it sounds like how my mom and I interacted outside of school - as in, I'd go to public school, and learn what the school wanted me to, and then I'd go home and my mom would teach me what I wanted to learn. More or less, just remove the school part. |
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Post by canadian mojo on May 25, 2011 12:42:12 GMT -5
I agree it's pretty pointless. I can see this kid growing up very, very confused. There's nothing wrong with going, "Yes, my child is a girl. And these are her favourite toys--the colouring book and the Tonka truck." Sounds like you've met my daughter. |
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Post by Rat Of Steel on May 25, 2011 12:45:46 GMT -5
Sorry to derail the thread (I know that's the norm 'round here, but this is a really good thread that's worth having), but I didn't realize this whole "unschooling" thing was even legal. I thought education was mandatory through 12th grade in the U.S. (or, at the very least, until 9th grade or so with explicit parental consent). Hell, even creationist home-schoolers at least pay lip-service to "the three Rs" during their biblical brainwashing sessions. "Unschoolers" don't even bother with that.  |
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Post by Shane for Wax on May 25, 2011 13:20:36 GMT -5
Like everyone else, I'm more concerned with the whole unschooling thing. The problem with letting kids decide what they want to do all the time is that life, from work to driving, doesn't really work that way. I just think there needs to be a gender neutral singular pronoun so I never have to type s/he or he or she at my shitty summer job. ze/zir. |
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Post by ixolite on May 25, 2011 13:30:09 GMT -5
How stupid must you be to turn your kids into guinea pigs after reading some fiction?  Also, did those morons never hear about David Reimer? Yeah, sounds like the boy is completely fine being a guinea pig. |
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Post by Bluefinger on May 25, 2011 13:39:21 GMT -5
How stupid must you be to turn your kids into guinea pigs after reading some fiction? Also, did those morons never hear about David Reimer? And I'm sure you'll be able to notice the difference in the two situations. One situation had a child forced into a role after a botched surgical procedure, the other is a child that isn't being forced into a gender role. Now, how are these two situations directly comparable? Think before you leap with this. Yeah, sounds like the boy is completely fine being a guinea pig. Likes wearing girls clothes, but still wants to be perceived as male. Upset at having to not go to normal school because others are not so accommodating? I think the problem is not with the child, but with other people. |
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Post by katz on May 25, 2011 13:53:27 GMT -5
Like everyone else, I'm more concerned with the whole unschooling thing. The problem with letting kids decide what they want to do all the time is that life, from work to driving, doesn't really work that way. I just think there needs to be a gender neutral singular pronoun so I never have to type s/he or he or she at my shitty summer job. ze/zir. I mean one widely accepted one, canonized into the English language. There's a bunch of them proposed, as well as an array people invent for themselves. It's not just for genderqueer/non-binary individuals but general reference of a single person whose gender doesn't matter in the context like "An employee shouldn't park his/her car in the middle of the lot unless he/she wants it to get smashed by the backhoes." I kind of like Per/pers/perself (short for person). |
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Post by Smurfette Principle on May 25, 2011 14:15:36 GMT -5
Sorry to derail the thread (I know that's the norm 'round here, but this is a really good thread that's worth having), but I didn't realize this whole "unschooling" thing was even legal. I thought education was mandatory through 12th grade in the U.S. (or, at the very least, until 9th grade or so with explicit parental consent). Hell, even creationist home-schoolers at least pay lip-service to "the three Rs" during their biblical brainwashing sessions. "Unschoolers" don't even bother with that. Nah, it's legal depending on where you live. Some states like my state require standardized testing, but everything that isn't learning about the test is doing whatever you want. Which is essentially what homeschooling is, unless it's online or whatever. |
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on May 25, 2011 14:39:01 GMT -5
My state technically requires that parents administer standardized tests every year and keep the results and tests on file, but they don't check it. They don't even have a requirement for the 3 Rs, aside from "annual standardized testing must measure achievement in the areas of English grammar, reading, spelling, and mathematics." Which, of course, means fuck all if you're not going to even check if the parents GAVE a fucking test.
I much prefer South Carolina's laws for homeschooling; they're much more thorough, and I get the feeling they're more rigidly enforced than NC's laws. Once again, the stupid hillbilly state of my birth trumps the supposedly better state of my life.
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Post by priestling on May 25, 2011 14:46:56 GMT -5
'zie' is accurate, actually. It started as an online term for androgynous or intersex folks, and kinda got adopted around as another gender-neutral term.
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