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Post by Amaranth on Jun 22, 2011 15:17:04 GMT -5
I have to say (surprisingly enough considering that I am a woman) that I can understand his frustration, PROVIDED THAT HIS VERSION OF THE EVENTS WERE TRUE. That's a big assumption, given what we know. And that's the problem. Beyond a thought exercise, there's not much point. |
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jun 22, 2011 16:07:25 GMT -5
I was routinely swatted with a wooden spoon for daring to talk back to my fundie mother when I questioned religion, particularly after my uncle was murdered when I was 7. She eventually broke the damned thing while beating my ass with it at one point. She also burned most of my fantasy books, some of my metal and rock CD's and a few of my awesome shirts with dragons on them because she insisted I didn't know the difference between fantasy and reality. She fucking stopped after I punched her in the face when she tried swatting me again at 13 years old. I'm lucky my dad was there to cover for me and have my back, or who knows how bad that would have gotten... I love it when fundie parents say this sort of thing, then turn around and say they don't want to just give away or sell the stuff "because it's demonic!" |
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Post by malicious_bloke on Jun 23, 2011 6:10:56 GMT -5
Just in case there aren't enough terrible burns in this thread already.
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Jun 23, 2011 7:39:38 GMT -5
Just in case there aren't enough terrible burns in this thread already.  |
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Post by wmdkitty on Jun 23, 2011 8:12:16 GMT -5
Heh, I see what you did there. And I do approve!
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Post by Thejebusfire on Jun 23, 2011 10:52:41 GMT -5
You know what? Fuck it. Let's just agree to disagree and you can all rest easy that I'm not going to ever have children so you don't ever need to worry about me "abusing" (aka: physically disciplining aka: spanking) any child ever. With all the crappy little "time outs" kids get these days, people still wonder why they're running wild? If you have to hit your children to get them to listen to you, then you're probably not that great of a parent. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Jun 23, 2011 11:16:46 GMT -5
You know what? Fuck it. Let's just agree to disagree and you can all rest easy that I'm not going to ever have children so you don't ever need to worry about me "abusing" (aka: physically disciplining aka: spanking) any child ever. With all the crappy little "time outs" kids get these days, people still wonder why they're running wild? If you have to hit your children to get them to listen to you, then you're probably not that great of a parent. Soooo... do you have kids? |
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Post by nightangel1282 on Jun 23, 2011 19:18:26 GMT -5
You know what? Fuck it. Let's just agree to disagree and you can all rest easy that I'm not going to ever have children so you don't ever need to worry about me "abusing" (aka: physically disciplining aka: spanking) any child ever. With all the crappy little "time outs" kids get these days, people still wonder why they're running wild? If you have to hit your children to get them to listen to you, then you're probably not that great of a parent. Ok.... sorry, just had to jump in and respond to this little gem. Are you insinuating that my father, who raised NINE children (one of them a foster child that he later adopted as one of his own), all but one of which are either already contributing members of society, or in the process of becoming one (my alcoholic sister is an exception in this case) was a bad parent? Because he disciplined his children for actions that could have caused them to hurt themselves or others? (The dishes incident was during hockey season, which was a time of year when my dad was basically psychotic during a game, and he never gave us the belt for anything even close to that minor again, and in fact brought us out for breakfast at MacDonalds the very next morning as his way of an apology). My father was strict, but fair. I love and respect that man, and I'm not going to stand idly by as someone insinuates that he's a horrible parent just because he had old fashioned ideals. His methods were effective on his children. Three of his kids are now fostering or outright adopt children and care for them as if they were their own. (and no, before you start flipping a bird, they do not use the same methods of discipline as my father did. CPS would not approve. If the child is too much for them to handle behavior wise, they just tell them to take the kid back, rather than having children that behave as delinquints influencing their OWN flesh and blood.) I'll say it again: Abuse =/= physical discipline (within reason, of course. I do not condone hitting across the head, or the back due to the permanent damage it can cause. But at least the butt has some fat in there to cushion the whacks.) Edit: Sorry, I would have responded yesterday, but I was in school and then stayed overnight at a friends house while our place was getting sprayed for bedbugs. Said friend does not have internet access, so I hate to wait until now. Oh! Shane: I hope I didn't come off as sounding like I was trivializing your own personal experiences with "discipline." (said in quotations because THAT WAS ABUSE, not discipline) I was in a rather foul mood that day and should have used far more discretion before hitting the send button. I'm sorry if my last post upset you in any way. Nightangel |
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Post by Amaranth on Jun 23, 2011 21:32:42 GMT -5
Soooo... do you have kids? I've never driven drunk, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Never done crystal meth, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. Never been a cop, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stay silent when someone beats their suspect while he's in handcuffs. So tell me, do you really apply this logic elsewhere, or is being a parent a sort of special condition where you have to experience it in order to judge the actions? Because that seems to hit a couple logical fallacies on the way out the door, ones frequently used by the fundamentalists this site generally mocks. And I'm having trouble seeing why it's more logical when "our own" do it. |
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jun 23, 2011 22:51:48 GMT -5
@nightangel: Yes, a whack across the ass is different than a punch in the face, and I really am sorry for overreacting in my posts. Something just...hit me wrong about what you said, but frankly I really was legitimately freaked out over the idea that you got 'worse' (read: more traumatic) punishment than a busted lip (at four fucking years old) for behavior that wasn't as bad as licking your dad's hand. Now that I know more about what you meant, I can't really agree with it being worse physical punishment, but I am relieved. However, I don't like physical punishments in ANY form. Even extremely headstrong children can be disciplined without the use of hands, belts, or switches. I did overreact, but my personal experience with "corporeal punishment" (and this is just while I was growing up) consists of 1) pants-and-panties down, ass-blistering whippings with a 6-foot-long, thick leather belt (really more of a thick whip at THAT length), 2) my mothers' childhood experiences with her fundie father (my dad was barely punished physically, so there aren't any horrifying stores from him) and 3) the recommendations of such insanely batshit child abusers masquerading as child discipline experts as Mike and Debi from www.nogreaterjoy.org/ who declare, among other things, that children as young as a 6-month-old must have their wills "broken" by physical punishment so they may be reformed into something more tolerable to parents who can't handle children developing personalities of their own. And as a headstrong bitch who, like nearly every other human being on the planet, also has certain privileges that she enjoys, losing those privileges made me shape up really quick, even in cases where my parents' demands were insanely stupid ("stop watching X-Men, it's of TEH DEBIL!"). There are better ways, and it's very easy for physical punishment to get out of hand, to be done for all the wrong reasons, or to not be done quickly enough. Amaranth: I think we need to link him to certain STFUParents posts.  There are a shitton of people who seem to think that, once they're parents, they're child rearing experts, and STFUParents has a nice collection of quotes from Packs Of Bitches and crazy dads who espouse that view while looking really, really stupid. |
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Post by nightangel1282 on Jun 23, 2011 23:11:03 GMT -5
Everyone's personal experiences play a role in determining the stance on the issue. Nobody's necessarily WRONG in their assertions, I'd just like to hope that there could be a nice balance of non-physical AND physical discipline.
Did you get my pm to you, Deadpan? It was my first attempt at trying to send someone one and I don't know I did it right or not lol
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jun 23, 2011 23:42:42 GMT -5
I did get it, I just don't know how to respond to it; PMs terrify me for some reason, not because you or anyone else who PMs me terrifies me, they're just scary to me...but I'm perfectly fine acting like an idiot on public threads. *cue Psyduck headscratch*
And I reluctantly admit that there are a few times when a swat on a bottom are good at getting the child's attention...but I'm not sure that it's so much more effective than taking their face in your hand and making them look at you while you speak that it's preferable, y'know?
I mean, my brothers and I were...wild at home, to put it nicely; there were more than a few dangerously violent altercations, partially because all of us were homeschooled, cooped up in a tiny trailer all day, and right around the same ages (4 of us born within 5 years). We're all pigheaded bastards, but somehow just my mom's raised voice would make us quieten down, take our hands out from around each others' necks, and listen.
The punishments ("absolutely NO computer time for a month, and if I catch you trying to sneak on, it becomes three months" "you will stay in my sight for three weeks, except for bathroom breaks" "THAT IS IT I'M TYING YOU TWO TOGETHER FOR THE DAY") made us vow not to do whatever it was we did ever again.
Granted, my mother's gotten VERY lax since I was little, and now that my brothers are older, lazy teenagers she fusses that they won't do chores but doesn't do anything but fuss...but spankings won't really work on teenagers, anyway, so.
(I apologize if everything's spaced oddly, but WALLS O' FUCKIN' TEXT scare people)
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Post by Vene on Jun 23, 2011 23:47:42 GMT -5
I am now curious as to what science can tell us. In a quick search, I found three studies saying it leads to antisocial behavior ( 1 2 3) and one saying there are long term negative psychological effects ( 1). I also found one saying that there isn't a negative effect ( 1). So, a quick glance at the literature tells me any form of physical punishment is a bad idea. You're all free to look for more data or dissect the studies if you like. |
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jun 24, 2011 0:01:32 GMT -5
In the case of Mike and Debi, it's a case of anti-social twits leading the blind in raising anti-social twits.
In the first ASB citation you provide, I found this quote interesting:
Verreh interesting, to me anyway.
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Post by wmdkitty on Jun 24, 2011 0:09:51 GMT -5
@nightangel -- There is NEVER a good reason to hit a child. Discipline can, and SHOULD, be non-physical, because all spanking teaches the kid is that it's okay to hit someone if they're smaller than you are.
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There are a shitton of people who seem to think that, once they're parents, they're child rearing experts, and STFUParents has a nice collection of quotes from Packs Of Bitches and crazy dads who espouse that view while looking really, really stupid.
