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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Jul 16, 2011 6:57:38 GMT -5
I meant to address this earlier, but got distracted. My apologies.
There almost certainly are people who are using the movement to further their own agendas. Without strong cohesion and central leadership, it's a ripe environment for corruption, regardless of how many rebels are genuine in their intentions. We've seen the same thing happen dozens of times throughout the world, particularly in Africa -- it would be incredibly naive to suggest that Libya isn't in danger of heading in this direction.
This is part of the reason why I'm not 100% comfortable with offensive action from foreign powers, at least for the time being, whilst not entirely opposing it either. On the one hand, I don't think the global community should simply sit back and twiddle its thumbs when a corrupt man in is power, and many rebels did make requests for help from the UN. On the other, I'm really not sure what the right move is here (aside from freezing his foreign assets & cutting diplomatic ties with Gadaffi, which many countries rightfully did) -- the situation is extremely delicate, with a myriad of unpredictable factors. One bad decision, and the whole thing goes up in flames.
Believe me, I share your trepidation about this whole thing, I just don't think that the lack of an immediate threat to westerners should be treated as a deal-breaker.
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 8:40:06 GMT -5
It seems many of you live in a idealistic sugar world, where we can make the world a happy place with kindness and sharing, only if there were democracies and all the dictatorships are gone. It's funny because there are so many places that dictators are killing their people, such as China, Iran, North Korea, etc. Of course these places are impractical but there are places that it would be practical such as Sudan for example. I don't think we have a right to protect or a duty to protect. It's stupid that we say whats right and wrong, and force our definition on people. In Libya the fact people are being killed by the regime should be of no concern to us, especially when many of them are no better. We really have no idea how many people favor the regime or the NTC. And Gaddafi, if he leaves us alone should be allowed to stay in power.
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 8:43:13 GMT -5
Actually in some cases dictatorships have been better, China is a dictatorship, but it does a good job of providing it's citizens with security and prosperity, as does Singapore, another authoritarian state. Haiti had elections, but does a shitty job of doing the same. There is no reason to promote democracy abroad especially when our is far from perfect.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Jul 17, 2011 8:54:24 GMT -5
Wow. Are you for real?
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 17, 2011 13:01:06 GMT -5
It seems many of you live in a idealistic sugar world, where we can make the world a happy place with kindness and sharing, only if there were democracies and all the dictatorships are gone. It's funny because there are so many places that dictators are killing their people, such as China, Iran, North Korea, etc. Of course these places are impractical but there are places that it would be practical such as Sudan for example. I don't think we have a right to protect or a duty to protect. It's stupid that we say whats right and wrong, and force our definition on people. In Libya the fact people are being killed by the regime should be of no concern to us, especially when many of them are no better. We really have no idea how many people favor the regime or the NTC. And Gaddafi, if he leaves us alone should be allowed to stay in power. I'm guessing you're the kind of person that would walk by someone who is drowning because "it's not your problem", huh? |
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 17:33:06 GMT -5
Depends on who that person is.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 17, 2011 17:38:13 GMT -5
Depends on who that person is.  |
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 17:39:19 GMT -5
Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 17, 2011 17:47:36 GMT -5
That was meant to be a rhetorical question. I was commenting on your sociopathic statements. I didn't expect you to actually confirm it.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 17, 2011 18:07:01 GMT -5
I'm beginning to get VERY uncomfortable at the idea that linux is serious. And please, no OS jokes, I'm seriously uncomfortable.
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 18:08:52 GMT -5
OK dismiss as not serious if that makes you feel better.
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Post by ltfred on Jul 17, 2011 18:21:18 GMT -5
It's stupid that we say whats right and wrong, and force our definition on people. Removing Gaddhafi from power by force would not be forcing our ideas of right and wrong on the Libyans, it would be allowing the Libyans to decide. Gaddhafi does not represent Libya; he rules by an iron fist, and has always done so. So he is using force to enshrine his ideas in law. It's apparent that the average Libyan does in fact want employment, free speech, democracy and so on- ideas that, while allegedly 'western', are attractive to the poor and downtrodden anywhere. |
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Post by linuxianilmurov on Jul 17, 2011 18:26:47 GMT -5
Really? You have proof? Have you actually been to Libya? You're in no better position to decide what the Libyan people want than anyone else. How do you know that Gaddafi doesn't have support? His tribe obviously supports him, as they rightly fear what happens when he is gone. Most activity has gone on in the East, and Misrata, and Nafusa Mountains. The reason the Nafusa mountains are fighting him are because they are Berbers and the regime are Arabs, nothing to do with nonsense about democracy. We should just let events unfold, Gaddafi probably would of won months ago and the war ended, we're just prolonging it.
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Post by ironbite on Jul 17, 2011 18:31:00 GMT -5
.....  Ironbite-just no. |
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Post by ltfred on Jul 17, 2011 18:45:28 GMT -5
I think the big crowds calling for free speech and democracy might be a bit of a giveaway. Exactly. That's why I think the Libyan people should get to pick who's in charge. |
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