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Post by Hades on Jul 15, 2009 2:15:27 GMT -5
Any time I come across a discussion about anime shows, the subject of dubbing always arises. It seems like damn near everyone thinks dubbing is evil and that the best and only way anime should be watched is in Japanese with English subs.
Am I missing something here? What the hell is so bad about dubbing? I can see if shoddy voice actors are chosen for the dub (Ocean dub of DBZ anyone? xD). But if the actors are good, what's the problem? Is this a "purist" thing? I don't get it :<
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Post by ironbite on Jul 15, 2009 3:08:35 GMT -5
DUBBING IS BAD! LEARN TO READ OR UNDERSTAND JAPANESE! I'M NOT A WEEBO! I'M AN OTACKU!
Ironbite-personally...I like dubs more then subs but that's just cause I'm lazy. And in love with the Black Ranger.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jul 15, 2009 4:18:22 GMT -5
In my experience, there's a certain degree of personal preference, & a certain degree of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
Someone told me that Sephiroth had "too much of a monotone" in the English version of Advent Children. Never mind that he's SUPPOSED to have a monotone, & he does in BOTH versions.
In my opinion, anime is fucking annoying in Japanese, which is why it irks me that the only sites I can get to load are in Japanese. Even if the Japanese voice IS better, what is the point? You can't understand what they're saying (which, in turn, would make it hard to understand how "better" they really are), so it's not like you're getting anything out of it. You could just mute it, or read the manga.
So, that said, my general observation is that sometimes the Japanese voice actor sounds better, sometimes the English voice actor sounds better, but most of the time, it really doesn't matter.
It's impossible to really "get," but somehow it's just taken for granted that all English voice actors suck. A lot of the times the assumption is really baseless, & made with absolutely no concern as to what the character SHOULD sound like (Cloud Strife should not sound heroic & manly, & Edward Elric should not sound like a 10-year-old girl). If you ask a person why that particular actor sucks, you usually won't get any good reasons at all.
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Post by Paradox on Jul 15, 2009 8:41:53 GMT -5
I don't watch much anime, but I think a good dub will always be better than a good sub. Some people say that the Japanese version is better, but how the hell am I supposed to know that? I don't speak the language!
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Post by Bezron on Jul 15, 2009 10:09:09 GMT -5
Here's what my Japanese teacher told me about dubs vs. subs: You don't speak the language, so it's all noise. The subs are going to be just as mistranslated as the dubs are, so go with the dubs (he was referring to the subtleties that are lost, not Engrish type mistranslations).
By the way, if you want to see a room full of weebos, otakus, and the US version of hikikkomori (I know I butchered the spelling on this), take a first year college Japanese class...
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jul 15, 2009 10:24:51 GMT -5
Paradox & Bezron highlight my number one skepticism about that. If you don't speak the language, let alone the dialect, how are you supposed to make a decent judgement on how "good" it is? Sure, in most cases, you can still get the basic emotion, but that's...it.
Plus, I hate the grammarfail in fansubbings. >_<
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Post by skyfire on Jul 15, 2009 10:36:48 GMT -5
Any time I come across a discussion about anime shows, the subject of dubbing always arises. It seems like damn near everyone thinks dubbing is evil and that the best and only way anime should be watched is in Japanese with English subs. Am I missing something here? What the hell is so bad about dubbing? I can see if shoddy voice actors are chosen for the dub (Ocean dub of DBZ anyone? xD). But if the actors are good, what's the problem? Is this a "purist" thing? I don't get it :< It's a show-by-show and person-by person thing. There are, however, usually a few recurring things when it comes to complaints about dubs. 1. Very often, anime is hacked to pieces and re-assembled in order to either make it more palatable for Western audiences, make it more commercially viable, aim it towards a younger target audience than originally intended, or all of the above. In the past, the main party guilty of this was Streamline Pictures, such that Carl Macek's name has become synonymous with butchered anime. Although they went bust ca. 1995, other outfits - like DiC / Cloverway and 4Kids! - are carrying the censorship torch. Granted, in rare instances such heavy editing may actually be for the best. IE, Voltron was more successful in the US that GO Lion was in Japan owing to the fact that World Productions LTD. was more flexible in regards to the scripting and thus avoided some of the original series' blunders. However, in most instances to where we have heavy edits, they end up shaming the source material. The textbook example of this is Macek mutilating Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind into a mindless action flick known as "Warriors of the Wind;" animator Hiyao Miyazaki was so appalled by what Macek did that he forbade any other animation company from translating his works unless he got full creative control over the process. 2. Poor casting choices are frequently made. This takes two flavors: *Traditionally, dubbing has been centered around four locations: Vancouver (home of Ocean Studios and Blue Water Studios), Fort Worth (home of FUNimation's studios), New York (home of US Manga Corps and a few other outfits), and California. On top of that, unionization is so strong in the VA industry that many studios are union shops or even closed shops. This means that a lot of your anime - particularly if it's been produced within the past 10 to 15 years - will share essentially the same voice talent pool. Problem is, a lot of actors either only have a limited voice range or aren't allowed to properly demonstrate what range they do have. As a result, you often have mismatched characters / voice talents; the talent simply cannot make the best out of the role. IE, with Transformers Energon, a lot of the hate for Kicker and Ironhide come from the fact that their VAs were just awful; Kicker's VA inadvertently turned a valid PTSD case into an emo, and Ironhide's VA was just damned annoying. You also have over-saturation, wherein a voice talent is simply heard so often that people are sick of them (such as Steven Blum, who ended up voicing a full third of the cast for G. I. Joe: Resolute). * As anime has become more mainstream, there's been an urge to help it along by casting known actors for the dubbing. In some instances, it works; the first Armitage III movie succeeded in part because Keifer Sutherland and Juliette Lewis turned in badass performances. In other instances, however, things don't turn out quite as well as planned, as the celeb was simply stuffed into the role; with the Disney redub of Nausicaa, for example, Patrick Stewart nailed his role as an aging swordsman but Uma Thurman was overkill in her role as a dictator. 3. Often, things like puns, nuances, and cultural inflections get lost in the translation process. *To put it simply, there is no such thing as a direct translation. Something has to give. To begin with, you have things like puns and minor nods that have to be in Japanese to be understood properly; for example, a lot of the Japanese promotional material for Irresponsible Captain Tylor seized on the fact that in Japan, "Ty-" is pronounced "tai," which is the Japanese term for a fish known as red snapper. *Alternatively, you have injokes that don't survive because they require a person to be familiar with another series or the portfolio of someone else. Lost Universe, for example, was made by the same creative team as The Slayers; not only did the writers & animators insert a number of references to the Slayers, the Japanese VAs were actually cast in the same romantic pairings (the only difference being that actress Megumi Hyashibara's character was on the losing end of the love triangle this time around). *At the worst, you have situations where entire cultural notions or precepts get mangled or even dropped simply because there isn't anything outside of Japan that can compare. Dub writers have to make something up, and all-too-often they either miss it entirely or botch the process of converting it. A prime example of this is the two Samurai X OVAs "Trust" and "Betrayal," which are so thoroughly steeped in Japanese history and cultural norms that you must watch the subtitled version in order to fully understand everything that's going on, especially why Kenshin's superiors were so keen to make sure that he had a lover; the whole thing comes off as fairly sexist in the dub (the writers treated her more as a geisha there for his amusement), but in the sub it's clear that they were afraid he'd self-destruct and sink into a berzerker madness if he didn't have someone to be responsible for.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 15, 2009 11:20:33 GMT -5
Skyfire's got it right, although he could've expanded more on the butchering that is 4kids rather than giving it a passing mention.
Quite honestly, I like both subs and dubs. The English Dubbing by 4kids was so horrible in many of their animes because they would change things around, make sloppy edits that are obvious even if you haven't seen the original Japanese anime, and sometimes even change the plot of the anime, where a mother who would sacrifice herself for her children would instead be "locked away for a very very very very very long time" by the big baddie. Honestly, watching the Japanese version WITHOUT subtitles would've been better, even if you didn't understand a damn thing.
Also, they tend to make the most obnoxious theme songs. THOSE are okay to keep in Japanese. Heck, Pokemon would be a million times more bad-ass if they'd just keep the original Japanese intros. Yes, that's right, I said Pokemon.
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Post by skyfire on Jul 15, 2009 11:32:50 GMT -5
Skyfire's got it right, although he could've expanded more on the butchering that is 4kids rather than giving it a passing mention. For 4Kids!, however, they're about the only game in town when it comes to mainstream-level anime. FUNimation and ADV are drifting towards older titles, Geneon / Pioneer went bust, US Manga Corps is in perpetual financial trouble, and the rest of the studios are in and out. The only exception is whatever Hasbro brings over from their Japanese buddy Takara, but that's been hit-and-miss as well (mostly "miss" though, such as when they gave Disney the right to broadcast Beyblade; Disney promptly buried it on Sunday mornings in a time slot so early few kids would realistically be expected to watch it). From what I understand, the original creative staff behind One Piece were so pissed at 4Kids! that they yanked the dub rights and gave it to another studio entirely. It's rare for something like that to happen.
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Post by Hades on Jul 15, 2009 12:44:43 GMT -5
Advent - Yeah I find the Japanese voices annoying as well. Plus I don't like to take my eye's off of what's going on to read, especially if there's talking during a fight T_T. And I liked Sephiroth's monotone voice. I have a thing for monotone characters like him and Chad from Bleach, probably because I myself am monotone. I'm nowhere near as bad ass though :<
Skyfire - Ah, you raise a lot of good points. I've noticed the difference between the subs and dubs, but I always go to the dub just because it's easier.
If I'm really into something and I care a lot about the story, I'll read the manga. Berserk is a great example. The 25 episode miniseries left a shitload of material out. So much so that I was completely confused when I began reading and trying to compare it to the show.
And yeah, voice actor redundancy does get annoying. I can always pick out Sean Schimmel, because he has a really hard time masking his oh-so famous Goku voice. The one voice actor who truly gets on my nerves is Mona Marshall. Not that she doesn't have a good voice, but she's in fucking everything. There's a few others I can pick out, but I don't know their names.
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Post by skyfire on Jul 15, 2009 13:32:59 GMT -5
Also, they tend to make the most obnoxious theme songs. THOSE are okay to keep in Japanese. Heck, Pokemon would be a million times more bad-ass if they'd just keep the original Japanese intros. Yes, that's right, I said Pokemon. In some instances, such as if the intro music is an actual song, there may be licensing issues keeping it from being used elsewhere. For example, the Japanese intro to the controversial series Speed Grapher is actually Duran Duran's "Girls On Film." The studio who did the English dub couldn't get the rights for the song, and so had to improvise. In other instances, if there's an excess amount of Japanese then some studios might opt to axe the OP for a different song entirely. That's what's been going on with 4Kids!, who virtually Godwin themselves with how stringently they try to erase anything that isn't English.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Jul 15, 2009 14:06:54 GMT -5
I prefer subbing, for a few reasons: I like how Japanese sounds, even if I can't understand a word of it. Virtually every time I've had the opportunity to check, the sub is more accurate. Mostly I notice this in movies in English translated to Spanish, which I'll admit doesn't mean anime is going to be that way. But, for example, I saw the Hunter X Hunter OVAs both subbed and dubbed, and I could easily tell the dub was skipping over parts of the plot and horribly mispronouncing character names, and on occasion, character techniques (Gensuru's secondary nen ability was alternatively translated as "Little Flower" and "Little Flour", especially jarring since the two words sound nothing alike in Spanish). It makes me wonder how much I've lost by watching mostly dubs...
Not to mention, virtually all Spanish dubbing is done in Mexico for all Latin America, in neutral Spanish. Neutral Spanish is the most awful dialect ever, since it has to be free of all region-specific language, making it sound horribly artificial.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Jul 15, 2009 14:31:26 GMT -5
Reasons why I hate dubbing:
1.) Bad voice actors.
2.) Dialogue is watered down somewhat. I noticed that when I compared the translations of some of my shows. That's one of the reasons why I started watching shows in Japanese with English subtitles.
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Post by Dr. Waldorf X on Jul 15, 2009 15:26:49 GMT -5
Reasons why I hate dubbing: 1.) Bad voice actors. 2.) Dialogue is watered down somewhat. I noticed that when I compared the translations of some of my shows. That's one of the reasons why I started watching shows in Japanese with English subtitles. Both of those heavily depend on the series. For example, the English script of DeathNote is more or less a direct translation from the Japanese script. However, no matter what you do, subs or dubs, things are going to get lost in translation by the simple fact that its a different fucking language. As for the editing argument, there would have a point if every dubbing company did their dubs 4kids style. However, considering the uncut policies of many dubbers, more animation studios (such as Toei, Gainax and Ghibli) being pickier about who they let distribute their work and the creators (such as Eiichiro Oda and Hayao Miyazaki) themselves hating to see butchered versions of their work, uncut and minimally cut dubs are becoming far more common place. Granted, you still have dubs like the original One Piece dub, but it ended up for the better in a way as it helped motivate Toei become more concerned about who dubs their work. Acting quality has also skyrocketed compared to the early years of dubs. Gone are the days when a single actor would have to play 5 characters to save costs in practically every series. There are, in fact, times in which the Japanese fans actually prefer the sound of the English actors, Lelouch of Code Geass (who is often described as monotone in the Japanese version) is a great example of this. As for the argument of the Japanese acting being "better" I have this to say: Do you speak Japanese? If no, how do you know? How can you tell how the Japanese actors emote and emphasize when you don't speak the language? The answer is you don't know if its better acting and you can't tell how they emote and emphasize. For all you know, the Japanese acting could be atrocious and every Japanese fan could despise it, the English acting could be critically acclaimed and loved by almost everyone while the purist will be running around screaming about how much better the Japanese acting is. Really, the dubs versus subs debate that argues acting quality and editing are always poorly done butcheries is outdated. There was a solid argument in the 90s, but we've come a very long way since then.
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Post by Deimos on Jul 15, 2009 18:20:31 GMT -5
If there is one english dub thats sucks terribly. its Naruto. I watched some of the Japanese, and then some english. And it was horrible. They gave Naruto the voice of what seemed to be a 60 year old!
Now death note has awesome dub
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