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Post by anon87311 on Sept 20, 2011 14:28:47 GMT -5
10% isn't tiny. that's actually pretty big. so...yeah...
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 20, 2011 15:20:49 GMT -5
God, I can't fucking stand the idea that every analogy has to be perfect. If the items being compared are exactly the same, it isn't an analogy anymore.
So the rate of falsification for other crimes is a lot higher than that?
Your quote is a better framing device for my question. 10% is pretty big depending on what you're talking about. Think 10% of 10 sentences vs. 10 pages.
My gut reaction is that 10%, while not warranting anywhere near the kind of attention that rape apologists give it, is still a pretty alarming rate of false accusations. But, then, I don't know what the rate is for other crimes, so it might be small, relatively speaking.
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Post by DarkfireTaimatsu on Sept 20, 2011 15:24:11 GMT -5
God, I can't fucking stand the idea that every analogy has to be perfect. If the items being compared are exactly the same, it isn't an analogy anymore. Computers are like tangerines, in the sense that I can't think of a good analogy for either one right now.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 20, 2011 15:26:41 GMT -5
We've had threads about rape before and from what I can remember, somewhere between 8-10% of rape allegations turn out to be false. Which is a very tiny percentage. And that's just among the women who come forward--if you factor in women who were raped but don't seek legal action I'm sure the percentage would plummet. Its probably a pretty significant percentage for the people falsly accused of rape...
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 20, 2011 15:35:12 GMT -5
Actually, I think that statistic is more like "There is a 100% chance I was just falsely accused of rape."
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Post by ragabash on Sept 20, 2011 15:40:09 GMT -5
We've had threads about rape before and from what I can remember, somewhere between 8-10% of rape allegations turn out to be false. Which is a very tiny percentage. And that's just among the women who come forward--if you factor in women who were raped but don't seek legal action I'm sure the percentage would plummet. Its probably a pretty significant percentage for the people falsly accused of rape... It should be noted that a lot of those "false" allegations includes cases where it is the judgement of the authorities that the accusation is false, not of the accuser admitting to a falsehood. And has been pointed out, these results are already skewed because of rape is one of the most underreported of crimes, as many people, men and women, do not want to be subjected to the publicity and (sadly) humiliation of a trial.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 20, 2011 16:01:46 GMT -5
Its probably a pretty significant percentage for the people falsly accused of rape... It should be noted that a lot of those "false" allegations includes cases where it is the judgement of the authorities that the accusation is false, not of the accuser admitting to a falsehood. And has been pointed out, these results are already skewed because of rape is one of the most underreported of crimes, as many people, men and women, do not want to be subjected to the publicity and (sadly) humiliation of a trial. I think I already said early on in the thread I have no idea how one could come up with a relaible statistic for how many allegations of rape are actually false. However... while it in no way makes rape apologetics any more palatable, the fact remains that there ARE a number of cases where people willfully falsely accuse other people or sexual assault, purely out of spite. With the possible exception of a tiny number of assaults, I don't think there are many other crimes where false allegations are such a powerful weapon with which one may assasinate someone else's character. So it is sort of relevent to discuss it.
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Post by anon87311 on Sept 20, 2011 17:31:17 GMT -5
Lithp: not disagreeing that it might be small compared to others, but that's still pretty damn high. that's one out of ten. that would be an unacceptable error rate for any scientific endeavor(that's been studied, not for the first time you do something of course).
but I agree with LHM.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 20, 2011 17:49:45 GMT -5
Oh, well relevent to the crazies, who go so far as to claim that rape does not exist, of course it's small.
You can accidently rape someone?
Maybe it will. Maybe the false reports will increase along with the genuine ones. The thing about statistics is that you can only deal with what has actually been recorded.
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Post by davedan on Sept 20, 2011 17:52:47 GMT -5
I suppose the other thing is if false accusations are counted when someone is acquited of rape that is probably unfair. Because the common law at least works on 'beyond reasonable doubt' so the accusation may have been true it just could not be proved to the exacting standard required. Which is not surprising when in most rapes there are only two people there. Which is why I suspect many rape apologists are scared of rape accusuations because there is little chance for corroborating evidence either way.
That is what I think drives the rational/ irational fears on both sides of the rape debate.
On the original analogy I think that is a powerful message and an appropriate analogy.
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Post by N. De Plume on Sept 20, 2011 17:55:48 GMT -5
And like I said, that's only for those who report the crimes. If we factor in the women (and men) who DON'T then that number will get much smaller. I think it's something like 2/3 of sexual assaults go unreported. How exactly do we arrive at that number if they are going unreported?
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Post by Oriet on Sept 21, 2011 15:26:03 GMT -5
And like I said, that's only for those who report the crimes. If we factor in the women (and men) who DON'T then that number will get much smaller. I think it's something like 2/3 of sexual assaults go unreported. How exactly do we arrive at that number if they are going unreported? Through methods beyond police reports and court cases. Surveys (especially anonymous ones), hospital records, things of that nature give a much clearer picture of crimes that happen; not just for rape but also things like domestic abuse, sexism, racism, and other things that don't leave clear evidence (like corpses) of said thing happening. Oh, and to further skew things you'd want to include when even the victim doesn't realise what happened is classified as rape. Marriage does not mean you consent to sex any time, any where, any how, after all; consent is vital no matter the relationship between them.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 21, 2011 20:59:49 GMT -5
2/3 of people who have been sexually assaulted would rather admit it to a survey than to law enforcement?
Davedan: It is fair because I think anyone with a rational concern to false accusation is more worried about the public reaction, as opposed to the actual sentence. Fucking someone up in court isn't all about getting them punished. It can be a financial or personal attack, as well.
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Post by askold on Sept 22, 2011 1:43:23 GMT -5
This is a complicated subject. Rape is a horrible crime but that is why being accused of rape carries a horrible stigma.
The problem with discussing rape and false-rape accusations is that you get some people who get to the debate just so that they can further their agenda.
Some "feminazis" (please note that when I say feminazi this does not mean every feminist or gender equalist, just the loonies who truly go into the misandry zone) claim that nearly every woman in the world gets "sexually assaulted." In which case the "sexual assalt" might refer to someone admiring a woman. But those people are loonies and they are just abusing the rape victims to further their ideology.
Likewise some of those who defend the men who have been accused of false rape (funny that they never consider the fact that a woman might also be falsely accused of rape.) are merely using those cases as evidence that "wimmin are all ebil." By exaggerating the amount of false rape-accusations (or at least cherry picking studies and cases) they are adding doubt into all rape cases.
Also, just because some of the rape cases are false, it does not mean that the real victims should be afraid to go to the police.
(I have trouble typing my point, but I hope it made some sense.)
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 22, 2011 1:52:01 GMT -5
You can accidently rape someone? Apparently. Just ask Julian Assange. And, it is an unfortunate fact that rape is highly subjective. While it is not an excuse, there are certainly many examples where two people have sex, and one genuinely believes it was consentual, and the other genuinely believes it was rape. Now, while this certainly doesn't make the rape any less traumatic or real for the victim, when considering the all important legal issue of intent, such cases could, I guess, be called "accidental" rapes.
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