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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Nov 30, 2011 15:22:25 GMT -5
Does anyone else the irony in someone from a party that would merrily let the poor starve calling someone else a "grinch"?
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Post by N. De Plume on Nov 30, 2011 15:34:33 GMT -5
I would presume because it's impossible for something to be representative of religion and not representative of religion at the same time? They're kinda mutually contradictory terms, if memory serves. It depends on who put it up and who is looking at it. For me they represent the holiday which is about giving gifts and children waiting for Santa. For someone else they could represent the holiday celibrating the birth of Christ. Right. Kinda like someone’s good luck manji is another’s Nazi swastika. A symbol’s meaning depends on the viewer.
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Nov 30, 2011 15:35:54 GMT -5
For me they represent the holiday which is about giving gifts and children waiting for Santa. For someone else they could represent the holiday celibrating the birth of Christ. The problem is that (per the modern definition) a Christmas tree is a symbol of Christmas, which is a Christian holiday associated with the Christian religion. It is what it is; it's conventionally associated with Christmas the way a menorah is associated with Hanukkah. If it works for you to associate it otherwise, cool, but a Christmas tree doesn't become a secular symbol just because some people prefer to see it that way. Thus (my original point) it's silly to try and claim it's both a religious and a secular symbol as it's impossible by definition for something to be associated and not associated with a religion simultaneously. You can't have it both ways...reality doesn't work like that.
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Nov 30, 2011 15:38:06 GMT -5
Right. Kinda like someone’s good luck manji is another’s Nazi swastika. A symbol’s meaning depends on the viewer. It was my understanding that the manji (and other symbols of luck/fertility that are often confused with a swastika) looks similar but is not actually the same design. Something about how the swastika is an alteration of the original design or some-such...can't be arsed to go look.
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Post by Old Viking on Nov 30, 2011 16:25:01 GMT -5
I avoid the conflict by pointing and saying, Oooooh, pretty!"
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 30, 2011 16:41:49 GMT -5
Swastika is just a name for the symbol, it doesn't actually denote Naziism.
Symbolism is not an inherent quality of an object, so it's literally nonsensical to say an item can't mean something because it means something else.
That said, you can't just call something non-religious out of convenience. What's next, are we going to put up the 10 Commandments, complete with references to the Lord & one true God, & say "It means whatever you want, so it totally doesn't violate the 1st amendment"?
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Post by N. De Plume on Nov 30, 2011 19:37:33 GMT -5
Right. Kinda like someone’s good luck manji is another’s Nazi swastika. A symbol’s meaning depends on the viewer. It was my understanding that the manji (and other symbols of luck/fertility that are often confused with a swastika) looks similar but is not actually the same design. Something about how the swastika is an alteration of the original design or some-such...can't be arsed to go look. No, it’s the Nazi use that has a specific configuration: Facing right and tilted 45°. And manji is simply the Japanese name for swastika. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
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Post by Wykked Wytch on Nov 30, 2011 19:43:35 GMT -5
It would be nice to have someone say "Happy Holidays" to me for once, instead of having to awkwardly explain to them that my family is Jewish when they mistakenly assume I'm Christian.
This isn't a "political correctness" issue. It's a "being polite" issue. If saying Happy Holidays really trips up your tongue that much, then just ask me what I celebrate and say "Happy ______!" There's really no difference. Although anyone who's been my friend long enough to know that my family celebrates Hanukkah better not tell me "Merry Christmas."
Oh, and my school is doing a fundraiser for the lower-income families in the community, and they're calling it a Christmas fundraiser. There are Jews, Muslims, etc. in the community who are in need too, morons! Just because that non-Christians are a minority doesn't mean that they should be marginalized like one!
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Post by mechtaur on Nov 30, 2011 20:27:31 GMT -5
It's called a Christmas tree. The holiday is called "Christmas," not "Holiday." There is no such holiday called Holiday, ergo there is no such thing as a "Holiday Tree." As a Pastafarian, fuck you.
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Post by m52nickerson on Nov 30, 2011 20:27:48 GMT -5
The problem is that (per the modern definition) a Christmas tree is a symbol of Christmas, which is a Christian holiday associated with the Christian religion. It is what it is; it's conventionally associated with Christmas the way a menorah is associated with Hanukkah. If it works for you to associate it otherwise, cool, but a Christmas tree doesn't become a secular symbol just because some people prefer to see it that way. Thus (my original point) it's silly to try and claim it's both a religious and a secular symbol as it's impossible by definition for something to be associated and not associated with a religion simultaneously. You can't have it both ways...reality doesn't work like that. Symbols do in fact come to mean different things because people see them that way. I would argue at this point Christmas is just as much a secular and societal holiday as it is a christian one.
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Post by mechtaur on Nov 30, 2011 20:31:42 GMT -5
If Jesus could see how Christmas is celebrated today, he would just walk away muttering "Forget their sins".
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Post by Kit Walker on Nov 30, 2011 20:45:42 GMT -5
Plant me on the side of beleiving there exists a "secular Christmas" (and a "secular Easter" too, for that matter). While I'm not super up on the Bible, I don't recall reading about Santa Claus, elves, Reindeer, or toys (or a giant bunny, eggs, and chocolates for that matter) in it. They coincide with Christian holidays, their origins are in Christian holidays (in the same way as Halloween), many Christians embrace those non-rreligous traditions, but it doesn't make Santa Claus or The Easter Bunny or Jack O'Lanterns into Christian religious symbols. EDIT: As I typed this, I was watching The Muppets sing about how Christmas is about giving and love and that we can all be Santa Claus, without Jesus in sight. This isn't a "political correctness" issue. It's a "being polite" issue. If saying Happy Holidays really trips up your tongue that much, then just ask me what I celebrate and say "Happy ______!" There's really no difference. Although anyone who's been my friend long enough to know that my family celebrates Hanukkah better not tell me "Merry Christmas." If we're going to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" to avoid offense, should we call a Menorah a "Holiday Candelabra"?
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Nov 30, 2011 21:14:29 GMT -5
Question: Should I feel offended that one of the other ASL teachers came into our classroom and made us sign to two Christmas songs, then told everyone to have a Merry Christmas and walked out?
'cause I kinda do. Not for myself (I celebrate Christmas...kinda) but for anyone in the class who doesn't do Christmas and was left out.
If you're going to put up a Christmas tree, call it a damned Christmas tree-- if it's in a public area, though, I'd damned well better see some inclusiveness of other religions and cultures. I come from too diverse an area for everyone to assume everyone else is okay with this shit.
And I sure wouldn't be opposed to seeing a traditional Yule Tree included, too.
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Post by Wykked Wytch on Nov 30, 2011 21:16:54 GMT -5
Plant me on the side of beleiving there exists a "secular Christmas" (and a "secular Easter" too, for that matter). While I'm not super up on the Bible, I don't recall reading about Santa Claus, elves, Reindeer, or toys (or a giant bunny, eggs, and chocolates for that matter) in it. They coincide with Christian holidays, their origins are in Christian holidays (in the same way as Halloween), many Christians embrace those non-rreligous traditions, but it doesn't make Santa Claus or The Easter Bunny or Jack O'Lanterns into Christian religious symbols. EDIT: As I typed this, I was watching The Muppets sing about how Christmas is about giving and love and that we can all be Santa Claus, without Jesus in sight. This isn't a "political correctness" issue. It's a "being polite" issue. If saying Happy Holidays really trips up your tongue that much, then just ask me what I celebrate and say "Happy ______!" There's really no difference. Although anyone who's been my friend long enough to know that my family celebrates Hanukkah better not tell me "Merry Christmas." If we're going to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" to avoid offense, should we call a Menorah a "Holiday Candelabra"? The reason Christmas trees are accepted as a "holiday symbol" even though they are overwhelmingly used by Christians is because Christians are the majority. Other people have pointed out that trees are not exclusive to Christian holidays, and, in fact, have their roots in ancient pagan customs. Even if they're not Christians, people of other religions bring home trees because they are a symbol of the holiday season, not because they celebrate Christmas. Some Jews bring in little trees too, and call them "Hanukkah bushes". However, non-Jews don't bring in menorahs for their holiday traditions (at least, not without being laughed at). Menorahs have a strictly religious connotation and use. To the best of my knowledge, Judaism is the only religion that involves a menorah in a winter holiday. What I'm trying to say is that the thing known as a "Christmas tree" is, in fact, accepted as a tradition for followers of many different religions. Calling it a Christmas tree ignores the fact that even though the Christian majority considers it a Christian symbol, it has religious or cultural significance for people of all religions.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Nov 30, 2011 21:18:47 GMT -5
Do Jewish people decorate Hannukah bushes like other people decorate Christmas trees? Like, is it the same general idea?
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