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Post by nizkateth on Dec 2, 2011 16:30:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Why should non-Abrahamic religions have to "get off public property", but not the Abrahamic ones? You misunderstand, I think both need to get off public property. My point is that a christmas tree is typically seen as a christian symbol... and so should be off public ground. And even if you look back and acknowledge its origins... it still needs to get off public property.
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Post by m52nickerson on Dec 2, 2011 16:36:37 GMT -5
Approximately 70% of the country is Christian, so it's not surprising that even people who do not profess belief in that religion are still exposed to and, to whatever degree, participate in the rituals associated thereof. It doesn't make them Christian by default, but it does mean they are participating in a holiday that 70% of the country (minimum) identifies as having ties to the Christian faith. None of that means that for the other 30% or so the tree and holiday does not have a different meaning. Just because an atheist understand that a Christmas tree had religious meaning does not mean it does not have non-religious meaning as well. Oh, and just because a majority of people identify as Christians, does not mean they actively participate or even think much about religious meaning of things.
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Post by nizkateth on Dec 2, 2011 16:40:42 GMT -5
None of that means that for the other 30% or so the tree and holiday does not have a different meaning. Just because an atheist understand that a Christmas tree had religious meaning does not mean it does not have non-religious meaning as well. I think people underestimate the weight "Christ Mass" can have. Frankly, that atheists celebrate christmas I think is a problem. If you want to get together we people you like in december, have a nice meal and give some of them presents... that's awful sweet of you, but it should never be in any way related with christ mass. Or it is a christian celebration.
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Post by m52nickerson on Dec 2, 2011 17:13:57 GMT -5
I think people underestimate the weight "Christ Mass" can have. Frankly, that atheists celebrate christmas I think is a problem. If you want to get together we people you like in december, have a nice meal and give some of them presents... that's awful sweet of you, but it should never be in any way related with christ mass. Or it is a christian celebration. Why? What is your reasoning for that? Is it because you don't think atheist should give the appearance of supporting a religious holiday? Is it because you don't think it is fair to Christians to co-opt their holiday?
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Post by nizkateth on Dec 2, 2011 17:19:55 GMT -5
Why? What is your reasoning for that? Is it because you don't think atheist should give the appearance of supporting a religious holiday? Is it because you don't think it is fair to Christians to co-opt their holiday? The former. Frankly, trying to pass Christ Mass off as somehow secular strikes me entirely as part of the ongoing effort to squeeze more christianity into secular life. I've visited a local church that is that bad. They are the type who feel any effort to stifle public expression of christianity is a war on the faith and see no problem in a war memorial for dead soldiers, on public land, being a giant concrete cross. Despite there being plenty of people who have died for the country who weren't christian. These guys are two streets over from where I live, it's frightening and it's personal.
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Post by Kit Walker on Dec 2, 2011 18:03:43 GMT -5
Frankly, that atheists celebrate christmas I think is a problem. Well you may sit at home, all alone and not watching your television, then. Me? I'm gonna get together with my family and watch movies like Jingle All The Way (lots of Christmas, no religion), The Lemondrop Kid (centered on Christmas, gave us "Silver Bells", no Jesus), It Happened on Fifth Avenue (the celebration of Christmas is a plot point, but Jesus isn't), A Christmas Carol (Christmas! Spirits! Very little religion!), Holiday Inn (Lots of dancing, a little bit of blackface, gives us "White Christmas", no Jesus), A Christmas Story (again, no Jesus), Scrooged (Christmas Carol in the modern day with even less religion!), Home Alone (a little bit of Jesus), and my ask my cousin's kids about what Santa brought them (without asking how the church service my aunt drags them all to was). For many folks the world over, Christmas has as much to do with Christ as Thursday does with Thor. In a decade or two, it will be about as religious a holiday as All Hallow's Eve. Or should atheists avoid Halloween too, because it is rooted in Christianity?
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Post by nizkateth on Dec 2, 2011 18:09:40 GMT -5
Or should atheists avoid Halloween too, because it is rooted in Christianity? I don't typically do anything for halloween, personally. Also, I guess I have trouble understanding how jolly old Saint Nick isn't in any way christian related... Or how 'Holidays' in general (being derived from Holy Day) aren't in any way religious (of any denomination) either.
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Post by Yaezakura on Dec 2, 2011 18:20:24 GMT -5
Or should atheists avoid Halloween too, because it is rooted in Christianity? I don't typically do anything for halloween, personally. Also, I guess I have trouble understanding how jolly old Saint Nick isn't in any way christian related... Or how 'Holidays' in general (being derived from Holy Day) aren't in any way religious (of any denomination) either. It's true that Saint Nick is inspired by a Christian saint. That... doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on his current form, which was the product of a Coca-Cola advertising campaign. One guy making handmade toys for a few underprivileged children in his town is rather far removed from an immortal magical fat man living at the North Pole, using reindeer to deliver presents to every kid in the world. And you're basically saying that atheists should never take a day off or celebrate anything, because the root of pretty much every celebration in human history is giving thanks to the gods for things such as harvests, births, weddings, or whatever. Even if you take a modern holiday that isn't based on thanking the gods for something (such as the 4th of July), the entire concept of celebrating pretty much has its origins in the observance of holy days.
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Post by Kit Walker on Dec 2, 2011 18:27:39 GMT -5
Or should atheists avoid Halloween too, because it is rooted in Christianity? I don't typically do anything for halloween, personally. Also, I guess I have trouble understanding how jolly old Saint Nick isn't in any way christian related... Or how 'Holidays' in general (being derived from Holy Day) aren't in any way religious (of any denomination) either. Because Jolly Old Saint Nick is just as frequently called Kris Kringle, a jolly old elf, or Father Christmas (depending on where you are in the world) as he is Saint Nick. His origins are traceable to a Christian saint, yes, but the whole "Lives at the north pole with an army of worker elves and flying reindeer and visits all the children in the world on Christmas Eve using magic" thing has about as much to do with Jesus birthday as the price of tea in China. The definition of "holiday" has changed over time. Words do that. It now means, as I understand, alternately "date designated as significant by a large group of people" or "vacation", depending on where you are and the context. Or do you fail to see how "Thursday" isn't encouraging worship of Thor as well? And I didn't ask if you did anything for Halloween. I asked if you thought that, as a religious holiday, it was wrong for atheists to celebrate it.
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Post by nizkateth on Dec 2, 2011 18:28:44 GMT -5
And you're basically saying that atheists should never take a day off or celebrate anythingActually I would say atheists should take time off or celebrate as needed, not because of specific days of the year.
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Post by ironbite on Dec 2, 2011 19:28:46 GMT -5
Also Christ Mass?
Ironbite-dah fuck?
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Post by m52nickerson on Dec 2, 2011 19:47:46 GMT -5
The former. Frankly, trying to pass Christ Mass off as somehow secular strikes me entirely as part of the ongoing effort to squeeze more christianity into secular life. Maybe, but I have yet to hear a Christian push Christmas as a secular holiday. So I think you have it a bit backwards. I've visited a local church that is that bad. They are the type who feel any effort to stifle public expression of christianity is a war on the faith and see no problem in a war memorial for dead soldiers, on public land, being a giant concrete cross. Despite there being plenty of people who have died for the country who weren't christian. These guys are two streets over from where I live, it's frightening and it's personal. Well Christians have just as much right to express their beliefs in public as you have to express your, or lack there of. Personally I have little problem with a cross as a memorial to fallen soldiers. Nor would I have a problem with a Star of David, or a Crescent Moon serving the same purpose. In the end the memorial is about honoring the fallen. The separation of church and state does not mean that religions should be treated as if non-existent.
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Post by Vene on Dec 2, 2011 19:51:29 GMT -5
Also Christ Mass? Ironbite-dah fuck? What did you think Christmas meant?
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Dec 2, 2011 19:52:41 GMT -5
Also Christ Mass? Ironbite-dah fuck? What did you think Christmas meant? I thought it meant "More Christ". I mean, it IS Spanish, right? Right?
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Post by MaybeNever on Dec 2, 2011 20:13:26 GMT -5
You're thinking of Christomás, which in turn has been secularized into a celebration of Australian Chris Tomas, who took this picture.
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