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Post by Wykked Wytch on Nov 30, 2011 21:47:25 GMT -5
Do Jewish people decorate Hannukah bushes like other people decorate Christmas trees? Like, is it the same general idea? Usually. Either that, or they get a "tinsel bush" which is already shiny so they don't have to decorate it. That's what my mom's family did.
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Post by clockworkgirl21 on Nov 30, 2011 22:01:03 GMT -5
I've always wanted to go around wishing people Happy Hanukkah because it would piss off all the right people.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Nov 30, 2011 22:25:46 GMT -5
Do Jewish people decorate Hannukah bushes like other people decorate Christmas trees? Like, is it the same general idea? Usually. Either that, or they get a "tinsel bush" which is already shiny so they don't have to decorate it. That's what my mom's family did. Huh...that's interesting, I'd never heard of that...granted, only ever knew one Jewish girl, and she was really just secular with Jewish ancestry, but huh...
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Post by mechtaur on Nov 30, 2011 22:28:47 GMT -5
I don't even know why people are still getting so pissy over "Christmas trees" considering the things are forbidden by their own rules. It even calls the trees themselves out in the very passage.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 30, 2011 22:30:28 GMT -5
I default to "Merry Christmas." The way I see it, Christmas is the holiday -I- celebrate. So I am including the person in my wintertime shenanigans, & if they don't want to be included, then I will modify accordingly.
Why do we have to call all allegedly secular symbols of the Christmas holiday "Christmas symbols" if the origin is, in fact, irrelevent?
Basically, a comparable situation would be becoming irate that Santa is depicted delivering presents to any family that wasn't explicitly celebrating Christmas, then turning around & trying to claim that even though he can only be used by a certain religion, he's still a secular symbol.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Nov 30, 2011 22:36:33 GMT -5
I just wish people a happy festivus just to piss off the fundies.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 1, 2011 3:53:28 GMT -5
The origin isn't irrelevant: the origin in these symbols comes from a non-religious tradition which is an important distinction. Their origins are non-religious, and their current context is also non-religious.
As for calling them "Christmas symbols"...that is simply what the holiday is called. Trying to re-cast them as "holiday" symbols is an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist. While the word "Christmas" comes from after the Catholic church's take-over of pagan traditions and thus has "Christ" in it, it need not have a religious context any more than "holiday" is actually a portmanteau of "holy" and "day" (while there are some religious holidays, there are also many secular ones too!). In common parlance, not all usage of the word "Christmas" invokes Christ, nor needs to invoke Christ, any more than all usage of the word "holiday" needs to invoke a "holy day."
It is the epitome of political correctness: the deliberate obfuscation of language to avoid offending a small minority of people that shouldn't be offended anyway by what you originally wanted to say.
As for "Happy Holidays..." I disagree with it being more or less polite. The country (at least in the United States) observes Christmas as a legally recognized holiday, even if some people personally do not. It is no more impolite to wish someone who doesn't personally celebrate Christmas a "Merry Christmas" than it is to wish someone who doesn't personally celebrate 4th-of-July a "Happy 4th-of-July." However, at least there are other legitimate holidays that "Happy Holidays" is referring to, namely Hanukkah and New Year's.
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Dec 1, 2011 7:30:13 GMT -5
It is the epitome of political correctness: the deliberate obfuscation of language to avoid offending a small minority of people that shouldn't be offended anyway by what you originally wanted to say. At least in my case, it's an example of clarity - I strongly dislike people who try to have it both ways, where a Christmas tree is a Christian (religious) symbol until it enters public land, when magically it becomes secular. To me, a Christmas tree is the equivalent of a Menorah; it's religiously based symbol representative of a particular religion, and trying to pretend it is secular is the real attempt to obfuscate whats really happening. Yes, it's a popular holiday - but it's still a Christian holiday. Participating in it doesn't make you Christian by default, but it does mean you were observing a Christian religious ceremony...if a really watered down, commercialized one. As for "Happy Holidays..." I disagree with it being more or less polite. The country (at least in the United States) observes Christmas as a legally recognized holiday, even if some people personally do not. It is no more impolite to wish someone who doesn't personally celebrate Christmas a "Merry Christmas" than it is to wish someone who doesn't personally celebrate 4th-of-July a "Happy 4th-of-July." However, at least there are other legitimate holidays that "Happy Holidays" is referring to, namely Hanukkah and New Year's. It really comes down to the fact that wishing someone "Merry Christmas" implies explicitly that they are Christian or otherwise participating in the Christian holiday. It's implying that not only does everyone celebrate Christmas (not true) but that Christmas is the default or correct holiday to be celebrating. "Happy Holidays" acknowledges that a significant portion of the country celebrates something other than Christmas, and that that's okay.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 1, 2011 7:34:25 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever heard anyone liken a Christmas tree to a menorah before.
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Dec 1, 2011 7:54:57 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever heard anyone liken a Christmas tree to a menorah before. They're not identical, but they're both widely used and recognized items strongly associated with a particular religious holiday.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 1, 2011 8:23:29 GMT -5
This just is not true. The history of the holiday has a strong non-Christian tradition. There is nothing Christian about a Christmas tree. Christmas trees do not appear in any of Christianity's holy text (except to call them symbols of heathens, see Jeremiah 10). If modern-day Christians conflate the Christian tradition of Christmas with the pagan-related tradition that preceded it, then that is reflective of their ignorance and not the holiday itself.
(And while these pagan practices may have at one time been considered religious, these religions are now defunct where it would be inconceivable to think that the government is endorsing certain ancient pagan religions when it puts up a Christmas tree.)
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Post by MiriamM on Dec 1, 2011 8:36:26 GMT -5
Cestlefun is saying it better than I could. Here in Finland, christmas is called "joulu", and in the Scandinavian countries it's "jul" or some variant thereof. But my "joulukuusi" (lit. "yule spruce") is not any more pagan or any less christian than your "christmas tree". They're words with a religious (christian or pagan) etymology, both now meaning a the same holiday with mixed christian, pagan, and commercial roots.
Also, if it were a religious symbol, then we should take offense at its presence, not its name. If I was offended by the WTC cross (I'm not), people attempting to explain it as nonreligious by renaming it would only offend me further.
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Post by N. De Plume on Dec 1, 2011 10:46:08 GMT -5
Christmas trees do not appear in any of Christianity's holy text (except to call them symbols of heathens, see Jeremiah 10) Neither do rosaries, but I think we can agree that that is a religious symbol.
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Post by SCarpelan on Dec 1, 2011 14:05:32 GMT -5
Christmas trees do not appear in any of Christianity's holy text (except to call them symbols of heathens, see Jeremiah 10) Neither do rosaries, but I think we can agree that that is a religious symbol. Rosaries have an exclusively religious use. The Christmas tree can be seen to symbolize the secular side of Christmas celebration. That's how I've always seen it but that's only my perception.
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Post by rageaholic on Dec 1, 2011 14:45:25 GMT -5
Honestly?
I don't give a fuck what they want to call it. This is one of those times when both sides of the debate are being touchy. FOX news goes overboard with the "War on Christmas", but you gotta admit, some people do take political correctness too far. The way I see it, Christmas is a tradition that is well known and celebrated by most Americans. You don't have to celebrate it, but getting offended over it is a waste of time. There's a lot of stuff that's offensive about religion, Christmas isn't one of them.
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