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Post by lighthorseman on Jul 26, 2011 16:13:30 GMT -5
What if you take the place of a legal immigrant or a citizen? I want you to go look at the comparison of the average high schooler born in America and then look at an illegal immigrant in a high school and told me which has the work ethic to deserve it. Um... so you think citizenship should be based on meritocracy? |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jul 26, 2011 16:18:38 GMT -5
Can our economy support that, though? Right now, can it support it? GDP is at pre-recession levels. We are a wealthy fucking nation. Besides, this is one is for private scholarships and allowing them to attend, they still have a disadvantage as citizens can get state and federal aid. From what I read they get in-state tuition charges (rather than the much higher out of state they probably should be paying)+private scholarships now. With the special caveat they have been in the country for at least 3 years (this time spent going through high school). They may have a right to the high school education but I don't see them having a full unchallenged right to college until citizenship. |
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Post by itachirumon on Jul 26, 2011 16:24:53 GMT -5
Can our economy support that, though? Right now, can it support it? Make the economy support it. I know it's not as easy as that. But quite frankly, I'm tired of America being this supposed bastion for weary travelers from other countries only to turn them away or judge them. I remember reading this one news story about this man who had been a police officer for YEARS, was well-liked in his community, and was over all a good guy and productive member of society... and yet when it was found out that he was an illegal immigrant, he was suddenly portrayed as this monster. I absolutely hate discrimination against "illegals" and will support more methods of allowing them to become legal immigrants. This! So much this. I'm so tired of hearing "illegals" like they're some kind of wretched terrorist group. I'm tired of them being treated as "less than" - it's even more jarring when you read about the Indian Genocide and realize just how many of these illegals (who are usually Mexican or Hispanic) are descended from mixed-race Natives.. as in, their ancestors probably lived here before whitey ran them off. Even mom buys into this b.s because we're upper-lower class, she sees "those illegals" wearing "all that jewlery and gold they didn't have to declare when they came into this country." She isn't even fundy but won't listen when I try to correct her way of thinking.. so the anti-illegals talk has bled even into the more sane amongst us. And this too. Talk about trying to create a perminant underclass. I remember about a week or two ago on college confidential reading how there'd be riots if the gov cut Pell Grants. Some person actually had the gall to suggest "the question we have to ask ourselves is: is college for everybody?" The general consensus was when you have a system, of course some people will game it, it's unavoidable, but the standard of living raises when we pull people out of the hole and give them a chance. |
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Post by Vene on Jul 26, 2011 16:29:23 GMT -5
GDP is at pre-recession levels. We are a wealthy fucking nation. Besides, this is one is for private scholarships and allowing them to attend, they still have a disadvantage as citizens can get state and federal aid. From what I read they get in-state tuition charges (rather than the much higher out of state they probably should be paying)+private scholarships now. With the special caveat they have been in the country for at least 3 years (this time spent going through high school). They may have a right to the high school education but I don't see them having a full unchallenged right to college until citizenship. What makes college fundamentally different than high school? And with this particular bill, the in-state versus out-state cost is irrelevant because it was a different law that allows them in-state costs. This bill is only allowing them to get scholarships from private organizations or individuals, assuming said organization even wants to grant it to an illegal immigrant. It is also focused on people who moved over here before they reached the age of majority and likely did not make the decision to move, but have been here long enough that it has become their home through another's actions. I am not comfortable with the idea of punishing somebody for the actions of another. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jul 26, 2011 16:36:48 GMT -5
Fundamentally by way of education levels or by way of costs and everything else?
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Post by Vene on Jul 26, 2011 16:40:09 GMT -5
What is special about college that it makes it okay to prohibit a class of people from accessing it?
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jul 26, 2011 16:44:27 GMT -5
That still didn't answer my question. But okay.
1) Costs. Much higher than high school unless you go the private school route.
2) Specialized education. It's not really specialized in high school. You get the basics you need to survive in the work force. College increases your specialties and everything else (as well as makes you more viable for places to hire and promote or so I've been told).
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Post by Vene on Jul 26, 2011 16:50:53 GMT -5
1) Tuition at a community college is less than what a public school receives per student
2) This is a difference, but you have not given the reasoning for why that makes it appropriate to bar a class of people from having access to it.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jul 26, 2011 16:56:36 GMT -5
1) Tuition at a community college is less than what a public school receives per student 2) This is a difference, but you have not given the reasoning for why that makes it appropriate to bar a class of people from having access to it. 1) I feel like we've done this one before constantly so I won't beat that poor dead horse again. 2) The reasoning? Because I'd like to see those who aren't at threat of being deported and therefore might be unable to even use the degrees they might earn get those degrees or at least those credits. ETA- of course this all depends on actually getting these private scholarships, I admit. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Jul 26, 2011 17:32:58 GMT -5
I agree 100%. I have all the sympathy in the world for people who put in the time and effort to legally immigrate to this country. I know it's a hard and long process, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to cut in line. Yes it does matter where you come from. We are a sovereign nation that has the right to determine who can and cannot enter our country. We can disagree on immigration policy, but adherence to the rule of law is of the utmost importance in preserving an orderly, civilized society. The scholarships (not to mention the placement in the university itself) could just as easily go to equally deserving people who are in the United States legally. Why should lawbreakers be rewarded? THis. Maybe we should focus on our legal citizens of the United States not getting the education they deserve first before we worry about people who are here illegally. Look at us, agreeing again! |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jul 26, 2011 17:33:42 GMT -5
THis. Maybe we should focus on our legal citizens of the United States not getting the education they deserve first before we worry about people who are here illegally. Look at us, agreeing again! Yes, I imagine there's a bit of a cold snap in Hell about this time. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Jul 26, 2011 17:34:11 GMT -5
1) Tuition at a community college is less than what a public school receives per student 2) This is a difference, but you have not given the reasoning for why that makes it appropriate to bar a class of people from having access to it. Then wh are there citizens and legal immigrants who can't access tertiary education because opf costs? |
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Post by syaoranvee on Jul 26, 2011 17:51:10 GMT -5
I want you to go look at the comparison of the average high schooler born in America and then look at an illegal immigrant in a high school and told me which has the work ethic to deserve it. Um... so you think citizenship should be based on meritocracy? My point was, why punish a person who obviously has the mind to actually do something with their lives after coming here and can be a excellent resource for our country? Also, People tend to forget that: A, Immigrants tend to have very little money and resources in coming here. B, Have to do shitty work for lower then minimum wage at jobs that most people in our country refuse to do in order to even have a shot at citizenship. |
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Post by Vene on Jul 26, 2011 17:53:51 GMT -5
1) Tuition at a community college is less than what a public school receives per student 2) This is a difference, but you have not given the reasoning for why that makes it appropriate to bar a class of people from having access to it. Then wh are there citizens and legal immigrants who can't access tertiary education because opf costs? They're not barred from applying, there is no income restriction from entering, and that is the purpose of financial aid (which is, admittedly, a flawed system). There is a difference between not being able to afford something and not being able to even try. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Jul 26, 2011 17:58:07 GMT -5
Um... so you think citizenship should be based on meritocracy? My point was, why punish a person who obviously has the mind to actually do something with their lives after coming here and can be a excellent resource for our country? Also, People tend to forget that: A, Immigrants tend to have very little money and resources in coming here. B, Have to do shitty work for lower then minimum wage at jobs that most people in our country refuse to do in order to even have a shot at citizenship. A and B re both certainly often the case... hiowever, my point remains... are you happy with the idea of illegal immigrants accessing tertiary education slots (which are limited in number, for a variety of reasons) when there are citizens and legal immigrants who cannot access them? |
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