brill
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by brill on Jul 26, 2011 22:15:48 GMT -5
This is a bit wordy - I apologize in advance.
I do agree that something needs to be done about illegal citizens. Both for their sake and ours--if they're not paying taxes, we're missing out on revenue generation. And they, in turn, get underpaid and put into dangerous conditions that may result in their death.
With that said, considering the way our immigration system is now, it's going to take a lot of changing and reforming to demonize illegal immigration in my eyes. Sovereign nation we may be, that much I'll agree with. We are a sovereign nation that still holds itself up as a land of opportunity and betterment for all. Yet the attitudes I've seen towards people trying to build a better life for themselves and their families--yes, even illegally--have not made me sympathetic to the anti-illegal immigrant side.
So persuade me, America. Start easing the immigration process. Accept more lower-middle class individuals--not just scientists, scholars, and brainiacs. Reconsider your stance on economic asylum. Prove to me that you're the better option for desperate, impoverished families.
I'm not taking any actions for or against illegal immigration. With that said, sentiments such as "We need to build a barbed-wire fence and set up soldiers to gun anyone who tries to cross the border" will place you quite firmly on my "Smile politely and avoid you from this point on" list. (No joke, I've heard someone say that.) I, at least, consider myself on the fence, so long as there's actual reform in the process. How do you think the statement above sounds to me?
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 26, 2011 22:24:01 GMT -5
I'm pretty much for making immigration easier legally.
Something that any juan sean can apply for. Cut down on the red tape.
Also, make it an idea I had is... if an employer is paying less than minimum wage to an illegal immigrant, and the illegal immigrant reports him to the police, the employer still has to pay the illegal immigrant minimum wage while the immigrant is given the opportunity to apply for citizenship. If they choose to go back, the employer has to continue to pay them even then, converting the money. This goes on for, say... a year? six months? I'm not too sure about this part.
On the other hand, if the employer does pay them minimum wage and doesn't violated their human rights, they aren't forced to do any of this... but the immigrant is still given the opportunity to become a citizen the legal way.
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Post by Passerby on Jul 26, 2011 23:45:22 GMT -5
So basically it's allowing a private buy-in for public schools. Making it legal for the government to accept money from the proceeds of a crime, how does this not surprise me? That is a "special" interpretation. This is the same logic that says it should be illegal to pay the neighborhood stoner to mow your lawn. You might not want said stoner to mow it, but that is a different question than whether you can offer compensation to said individual for a task. If you don't like "stoner" then change it to something like somebody with unpaid parking tickets or prostitute or "sodomite" pre-Lawrence v. Texas. Also, college=/government. The source material specifically states it allows public (state funded) schools to take money from private scholarships to cover the expenses. Would amending it specify a government organization/program be more accurate? A legal citizen would most likely apply for a loan from another government program or office to be paid back with interest. Since an illegal immigrant can't get such a loan legally from either the government or domestic lenders they are either A) Pulling in money from overseas, which the school has no problem taking despite it's illegality. Or B) Independantly wealthy, and we all know the laws work differently for such people. I was heavily implying option A. Unless I'm mistaken, for someone to legally recieve a foreign scholarship they have to be a legal resident. If someone who is not a legal resident is getting money from such a fund they are either defrauding their benefactor by telling them they have a student visa or the lender is knowingly funneling money to an illegal alien. Both are crimes. I am not certain that the stoner lawn mower comparison is valid as I am not an accessory to his personal crimes and paying him to work is not a crime in itself unless I happen to be paying him in pot which he smokes right in front of me before leaving for the day. Then the anology might be closer. Simply taking the money and giving the student the finger was probably standard procedure before the Dream Act, but then I imagine somebody from group B complained that they 'bought' that education and their diploma fair and square. Personally I do believe if you go through the education and pass on your own merit then you've earned that no matter how you got into the system. |
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Jul 27, 2011 2:45:46 GMT -5
Excpt that they don't need a visa to move here, either *shudder* And if Australian porn censorship is effecting you in the slightest fashion, might I suggest that you aren't internetting right? It's purely the principle of the matter. Trust me, I would not want a cop to see my stash. Also, the video game censorship does indeed effect me. I would not want to see your stash either. |
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 27, 2011 9:03:56 GMT -5
Vene: You're absolutely right: illegal children have the right to a primary and secondary education just like any other person within the borders of the United States mostly because it would be cruel to deny them their right on something they have virtually no control over. But once they become an adult, they are legally responsible for their immigration status. And I know that illegal immigrants do a lot of hard work and are really trying to carve out a better life for themselves, but it's the principle of the thing: they're cutting in line (legal immigrants have the same aspirations) and thumbing their nose at a sovereign nation. I will soon be moving to France for a year. For this, I have to apply for a long-stay visa. It is a long process with lots of paperwork and kind of a pain in the butt, but I would never dream of just waltzing into a sovereign country without their permission. I have respect for their country.
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Post by Ranger Joe on Jul 27, 2011 9:49:57 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't give a damn who you are, you deserve the right to be educated. No one is saying they are being denied the right to be educated. This is a matter of the State paying for their tuition or off setting the cost. Having the right to be educated and having the means to be educated are two different things. I agree that there should be plans in place to fast track citizenship. However, I believe that this scholarship bit should go to people who are here legally or are already citizens. If you want a fast track to citizenship? Join the military. Make it be a 6 year enlistment contract with 4 years reserve and at the end of your active duty you are given citizenship. Give the scholarships to legal immigrants or citizens who are unable to afford college if you're going to give it to someone. You shouldn't be rewarded for breaking laws with a college education when we have citizens who are struggling to pay for college in the first place. |
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Post by Vene on Jul 27, 2011 10:19:25 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't give a damn who you are, you deserve the right to be educated. No one is saying they are being denied the right to be educated. This is a matter of the State paying for their tuition or off setting the cost. Having the right to be educated and having the means to be educated are two different things. Joe, this isn't Federal or State funds, this is for private scholarships. That was a major component of the original Dream Act that failed not too long ago. |
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Post by nickiknack on Jul 27, 2011 10:20:51 GMT -5
These private funds would be better used in helping people come here legally, I would like see those pro-immigrant groups help those who want to come here do so legally, along with advocating the reform of the immigration system. Also the "American Dream" is the one of biggest farces ever...yeah it was once attainable, but nowadays it's a joke, even with a college education.
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Post by Vene on Jul 27, 2011 10:25:59 GMT -5
Vene: You're absolutely right: illegal children have the right to a primary and secondary education just like any other person within the borders of the United States mostly because it would be cruel to deny them their right on something they have virtually no control over. But once they become an adult, they are legally responsible for their immigration status. So, at 17 they are not responsible for their parents immigrating when they're 5 or 10 or whatever, but at 18 they suddenly are? These are people who were unable to decide if they break a law (or may not even have been aware they were breaking the law) and for many the US is the only nation they know. It is inappropriate to punish somebody for the actions of their parents, which is exactly what you are suggesting. |
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 27, 2011 10:51:53 GMT -5
A line has to be drawn somewhere, and in the United States that line is at 18.
It is inappropriate, and illegal children shouldn't be punished for the actions of their parents. But eventually they become adults and are entirely responsible for their own lives, including their immigration status. Once they turn 18, they are legal adults and their continued illegal presence in the country is their responsibility to correct.
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Post by Vene on Jul 27, 2011 11:02:12 GMT -5
Which is still, ultimately, punishing them for their parents bringing them over. There are still negative consequences, including but not limited to, them being ineligible to immigrate to the US legally in the future. At 17, they have no say and then at 18, they are magically responsible for another person's actions and must suffer accordingly. That is the issue, they are still being punished for what another person did. Our system is supposed to be founded on, amongst other principle, fairness. It is not fair to make an individual responsible for another's actions.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 27, 2011 11:12:50 GMT -5
Illegal status is just that, a status. It is not a discrete action that occurs and ends at a specific moment in time (such as robbing a store). It is a violation of the law that is occurring continuously. While it isn't an illegal immigrant's fault if his parent brought him here as a child, once he becomes an adult, the responsibility for this continuously occurring violation shifts hands from the parent to the now-adult.
Even as a child, the child did not have a right to be in the United States. It was just that it was the parents' responsibility to correct his illegal status. If the parent chooses not to correct her child's illegal status as a child, and the grown child does not choose to correct his status as an adult, then the United States has the right to correct it for them.
If this is the case, this should definitely be changed provided that the now-adult expeditiously attempts to correct his illegal status.
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Post by Vene on Jul 27, 2011 11:24:58 GMT -5
Then give them temporary amnesty and a chance to enter the legal immigration system if it is done before, say, their 19th birthday. Grandfather in those who came here as children, but are over the aforementioned age limit so they can enter the legal system in the same manner. Joe's suggestion of entering the military is acceptable. As long as they enter and are discharged honorably, give them citizenship. There is nothing that shows allegiance to a nation more than serving.
ETA: The point of this bill is to give those who are being treated unfairly by the greater system a small chance. You even have agreed there are problems with the immigration system. This is what the state of California is able to offer as it cannot grant amnesty. There is also the point that illegal immigrants are heavily demonized as the source of this nation's problems and hurting the middle class (if you want to see what is hurting the middle class look to the wealthy elite instead), this bill can help improve the atmosphere to grant the political will needed to reform the system in a meaningful fashion.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 27, 2011 11:28:51 GMT -5
That seems perfectly reasonable and should be passed by the federal government.
But it isn't California's place to give anyone amnesty any more than it is Arizona's place to make illegal status a state crime in contradiction with federal law. The law needs to change at the federal level.
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Post by Vene on Jul 27, 2011 11:34:27 GMT -5
Then it's a good thing California's Dream Act doesn't actually grant amnesty, isn't it?
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