California "Dream Act" approved

[lighthorseman]

Jul 27, 2011 10:20:51 GMT -5 nickiknack said:

These private funds would be better used in helping people come here legally.

Entirely my point.

[cestlefun17]

Then it's a good thing California's Dream Act doesn't actually grant amnesty, isn't it?

Still, it's inappropriate to be giving such resources to illegal immigrants over legal immigrants and citizens. The federal government should provide a means to allow immigrants who came here illegally as children to gain legal status, but until then, they are no different than any other illegal immigrant.

[Vene]

Then it's a good thing the state of California isn't the one giving the scholarships.

[Ranger Joe]

I don't care where the money is coming from, in the long run. Whether it be Federal, State or Private. I think the funds could be used much more constructively.

To deny that there is an immigration problem is to just jam your head firmly in the sand. I always get a chuckle when people say that the immigrants are harming the middle class..The thing is, these immigrants are willing to do all the jobs that most people consider too tough or consider themselves above.

The rich elite are fucking everyone, including each other. Ha!

Now, I don't want to sound terrible here...I will admit, it's nice that they are doing something. A college education can completely turn someone's life around. However, using these funds to ease the process and help people achieve legal status? This would better benefit us as a whole society, as there would be a large influx of workers who begin paying taxes. Now, I'm no economist...I am more basing that idea off what makes sense in my head.

If they shot down the "Citizenship for Service" act in that bill, then they really are a bunch of fucking wankers. Then again, water is wet.

ETA: minor punctuation errors..

[cestlefun17]

Then it's a good thing the state of California isn't the one giving the scholarships.

It doesn't make a difference who is giving the scholarships. The State of California shouldn't be enabling anyone to allow illegal immigrants to continue their unlawful presence here in violation of federal law.

[Vene]

Jul 27, 2011 12:26:18 GMT -5 cestlefun17 said:

Then it's a good thing the state of California isn't the one giving the scholarships.

It doesn't make a difference who is giving the scholarships. The State of California shouldn't be enabling anyone to allow illegal immigrants to continue their unlawful presence here in violation of federal law.

Provide evidence that a private scholarship makes it easier for an immigrant to stay here illegally.

[cestlefun17]

Provide evidence that a private scholarship makes it easier for an immigrant to stay here illegally.

What use would an illegal immigrant have for a scholarship to an American university? Presumably, if they accept the scholarship, they will have to attend school in the United States and thus continue their unlawful presence here (and if they can use the scholarship in schools outside the U.S. then you are expatriating United States dollars which is another issue).

I can see the argument that private funders should be able to do what they want with their money, if they want to give scholarships to illegals over equally deserving legal immigrants or citizens. But giving illegals money to go to school here is giving them another incentive to continue their illegal presence.

[Vene]

You are aware this is only about private scholarships, right? Just so we're talking about the same thing. The state isn't giving illegal immigrants a cent for college.

Your argument about giving them money for school being an incentive to continue their presence here is also invalid due to the earlier linked court case where the state is required to finance primary and secondary education. Post-secondary education is no more of an incentive than either of these, unless you are able to provide evidence suggesting otherwise.

[cestlefun17]

You are aware this is only about private scholarships, right? Just so we're talking about the same thing. The state isn't giving illegal immigrants a cent for college.

Yes, now I do. So I admit that my comparison with California giving amnesty and Arizona making illegal presence a crime was wrong.

This law probably doesn't violate any federal law, nor is it unconstitutional. I'm just saying I personally disagree with it.

Your argument about giving them money for school being an incentive to continue their presence here is also invalid due to the earlier linked court case where the state is required to finance primary and secondary education. Post-secondary education is no more of an incentive than either of these, unless you are able to provide evidence suggesting otherwise.

The difference is is that primary and secondary education is seen as a right, and those attending primary and secondary schools are children. So it would be cruel to deny the children their right to education based on something they have no control over. But as I said, once they become adults, they are responsible for correcting their illegal status.

Giving an illegal alien a scholarship to an American university can have only one effect: the illegal aliens who accept them will continue to stay in the country unlawfully. It doesn't matter how admirable their activity is in this country as it still doesn't change the fact that federal law is what it is.

Also, I'm curious how illegal immigrants would accept these scholarships without drawing attention to the fact that they are illegal.

[Keiro]

Who cares?

So long as they have an easier path to become a legal citizen, I'm all for it.

I don't give a fuck if they're staying here unlawfully, so long as they eventually become legal in some way, shape or form.

[booley]

Jul 26, 2011 11:18:10 GMT -5 caseagainstfaith said:

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - California Governor Jerry Brown signed into law on Monday a bill allowing illegal immigrants to receive privately funded scholarships to attend the state's public colleges and universities.

The bill, dubbed the California Dream Act, passed the state Legislature earlier this month and aims at helping illegal immigrants who earned a diploma after attending at least three years of high school in the state.

Enactment of the California measure came three days after opponents of a similar law in Maryland collected enough signatures to force a state referendum seeking its repeal.

"At the end of the day, if we're going to continue as a powerful, equal-opportunity society, we're going to have to invest in our people," Brown, a Democrat, said at the signing ceremony in the library of a Los Angeles community college.

The California law is named after national legislation in Congress to give young, undocumented immigrants who have lived in the United States for at least five years a pathway to citizenship through college or military service.

The federal bill failed to win passage in December 2010, and its chances have dimmed since a newly elected Republican majority took control of the House of Representatives.

Critics say the California Dream Act gives illegal immigrants a false promise because their status will not change after graduating from college and they will remain unable to find legal employment. Former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, a Republican, vetoed an earlier version of the bill last year.

But Julian Rivera, 20, a student at the University of California at Berkeley who entered the United States illegally with his parents at age 12 from Mexico, said the measure could make it easier those like him to afford to stay in school.

"It doesn't matter where you come from, it doesn't matter what your background is, it just matters that you have passion for something and you want to do it," he said. "This is a country that has given us that freedom."

source - news.yahoo.com/california-dream-act-approved-illegal-immigrants-013617230.html

I don't see how this is legal. I didn't think states had this kind of power, I thought this was on par with federal powers ie congress having to enact this for it to be truly legal. I am against this as this is giving illegals special treatment that they don't deserve.

I have no idea of the legality. This does seem similar to California's other law legalizing medical marijuana, which has become a political football with the Feds clamping down on or ignoring dispensaries depending on the climate.

HOWEVER, I will point out something I do know.. that educated immigrants (whether undocumented or documented) end up giving back more to their home country. So this law stands to ultimately help California as a whole.

It's called enlightened self interest. By helping others we help ourselves.

I am unsure at which in our history we forgot about that.

[cestlefun17]

So long as they have an easier path to become a legal citizen, I'm all for it.

I don't give a fuck if they're staying here unlawfully, so long as they eventually become legal in some way, shape or form.

Yes, but right now there is no such path. Accepting these scholarships will not grant them legal status. Only the Federal government can change this.

HOWEVER, I will point out something I do know.. that educated immigrants (whether undocumented or documented) end up giving back more to their home country. So this law stands to ultimately help California as a whole.

How does this help California? Expatriation of money hurts our economy.

[Vene]

Jul 27, 2011 14:21:03 GMT -5 cestlefun17 said:

You are aware this is only about private scholarships, right? Just so we're talking about the same thing. The state isn't giving illegal immigrants a cent for college.

Yes, now I do. So I admit that my comparison with California giving amnesty and Arizona making illegal presence a crime was wrong.

This law probably doesn't violate any federal law, nor is it unconstitutional. I'm just saying I personally disagree with it.

Your argument about giving them money for school being an incentive to continue their presence here is also invalid due to the earlier linked court case where the state is required to finance primary and secondary education. Post-secondary education is no more of an incentive than either of these, unless you are able to provide evidence suggesting otherwise.

The difference is is that primary and secondary education is seen as a right, and those attending primary and secondary schools are children. So it would be cruel to deny the children their right to education based on something they have no control over. But as I said, once they become adults, they are responsible for correcting their illegal status.

Giving an illegal alien a scholarship to an American university can have only one effect: the illegal aliens who accept them will continue to stay in the country unlawfully. It doesn't matter how admirable their activity is in this country as it still doesn't change the fact that federal law is what it is.

Also, I'm curious how illegal immigrants would accept these scholarships without drawing attention to the fact that they are illegal.

1) The system has no way to let them correct their status. Even with deportation they will be penalized for it.
2) And giving an illegal immigrant a high school education doesn't give the same incentive how? It gives the incentive for a family to stay here illegally as it means their children will get a better education than they would in their home country. And while there hasn't been a case, to my knowledge, of post-secondary education being a right you have provided nothing saying it is not and we can reasonably extrapolate based on said case as well as that colleges are bound by anti-discrimination laws to say that it is unjust to actively deny them access to post-secondary opportunities.

[cestlefun17]

1) The system has no way to let them correct their status. Even with deportation they will be penalized for it.

That is the policy adopted by the federal government. I agree the policy should be changed and can be better streamlined, but the authorities can't enforce the law as they'd like to see them written.

2) And giving an illegal immigrant a high school education doesn't give the same incentive how? It gives the incentive for a family to stay here illegally as it means their children will get a better education than they would in their home country. And while there hasn't been a case, to my knowledge, of post-secondary education being a right you have provided nothing saying it is not and we can reasonably extrapolate based on said case as well as that colleges are bound by anti-discrimination laws to say that it is unjust to actively deny them access to post-secondary opportunities.

The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it isn't a right. Primary and secondary education is a right and can't be denied to people based on something they have no control over. Children have no control over their immigration status. Adults do. An adult is responsible for his or her own actions and can willingly leave the country.

Discrimination can be justified if you are discriminating based on something someone has control over. Adults have control over their immigration status. If you're illegal, you can choose to leave the country and do the hard work of coming here legally like so many people have done.

[Vene]

Except that was not the argument. It was due to their immigrant status.

A Texas statute denying free public education to illegal aliens violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, because discrimination on the basis of immigration status did not further a substantial state interest. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed.

Their immigrant status has not changed.

Besides, you've already admitted this is okay legally. We can move beyond your legalistic wanking now. This is about your personal opinion. Do you really think that an 18 year old is that much more capable than a 17 year old?