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Post by Amaranth on Sept 17, 2011 22:32:53 GMT -5
A less religiously cynical viewpoint might say that we really like having a democratic(ish), fairly western friendly nation in the Middle East. And a slightly astute individual might point out the cost is too high and there would be better ways to accomplish this goal. |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 17, 2011 22:59:01 GMT -5
If Israel applied the same democratic standards to everyone living within the lands it claims, that viewpoint might be valid. Unfortunately, that's not what's going on here -- instead, we've got Israel's own take on Apartheid, cranked up to 11.
And that's not to say that Palestine is perfect, or that Israeli citizens haven't been negatively affected, but the fact of the matter is that Palestine is David to Israel's Goliath -- both in terms of fire power, and the degree of wrong-doings being carried out.
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Post by Kit Walker on Sept 17, 2011 23:05:20 GMT -5
I didn't say it wasn't costly, or wrongheaded, or bad for the long term. I'm simply saying that it is the not batshit crazy religious reason.
The other reason we (and an ever shrinking chunk of the western world) are so protective of Israel is that we don't exactly want to see (1) Their unfriendly neighbors start up a new round of ethnic cleansing against Jews and (2) We REALLY don't want Israel to ever feel the need to use their nukes.
Palestine is being treated like shit, it isn't ok by a far sight. But "Teh RAPTURE!" is not the only reason our government supports Israel.
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 17, 2011 23:07:24 GMT -5
But "Teh RAPTURE!" is not the only reason our government supports Israel. I know. I'm one of the people who noted it. |
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on Sept 17, 2011 23:28:05 GMT -5
Palestine is being treated like shit, it isn't ok by a far sight. But "Teh RAPTURE!" is not the only reason our government supports Israel. But the way the right wingers coopt that group's support is both cynical and warrants another look at why Israel is so important to US interests in the first place. |
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Post by brendanrizzo on Sept 18, 2011 1:13:52 GMT -5
Stupid question: Why does the US seem so adamant to support Israel so much? Why are they afraid of Palestine having statehood? Well, I can tell you that we in the US are against Palestine having statehood just to piss you Europeans off. After all, it's not like we could possibly have legitimate reasons for it, such as the fact that every single time the Israelis relax their policy, the Palestinians continue their bombing and terrorism. Really, I'd prefer whatever ends this Arab-Israeli Conflict. However, it's been going on since before we all were born, so it will still be going on after we are all dead. These people are just incapable of democracy. The protests of this year were all for naught. The countries are still just as oppressive. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is horrible, but the Palestinians are so bad that the Israelis look good in comparison. (Though if you asked me of my honest opinion, I'd say that since the two peoples cannot live in peace, they have both forfeited the right to exist and should be nuked to extinction. The same applies to all areas racked by ethnic strife, like the former Yugoslavia or the Caucasus. The West has long been able to put aside such petty differences and live in peace, so any people who cannot do that do not deserve to live.) |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 18, 2011 2:37:35 GMT -5
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Post by ltfred on Sept 18, 2011 3:56:33 GMT -5
Stupid question: Why does the US seem so adamant to support Israel so much? Why are they afraid of Palestine having statehood? Well, I can tell you that we in the US are against Palestine having statehood just to piss you Europeans off. After all, it's not like we could possibly have legitimate reasons for it, such as the fact that every single time the Israelis relax their policy, the Palestinians continue their bombing and terrorism. Israel has never ended their policy of repression in occupied Palestine. Generally, outbreaks of violence (such as the 2006 Lebanon War or the 2009 Gaza Massacre) are preceded by the stepping-up of Israeli violence; in both cases by unprovoked IDF rocket attacks. As for terrorism, it is the only weapon of the weak. The Palestinians have no tanks, so they do not launch armoured assaults; they have no aircraft so they do not send bombing raids. They use suicide bombing because it works* and because it is available. Would you agree that a two state solution (ie- Palestinian statehood, Israeli withdrawal from occupied terroritory and possible UN monitoring of the peace) is a good solution? Israel doesn't; they'd prefer simple victory (ethnic cleansing of Palestinians followed by Israeli settlement of the West Bank). Surely some members of this site were born before 1948, the beginning of the Arab/Israeli wars. The Israeli/Palesinian conflict is even more modern, starting in (perhaps) 1968. Oh, did you think it was a thousands of years old conflict sparked by religious bigotry? It isn't. That's bullshit. I hope the Israelis decide to end it before then. Palestine is a democracy. The government of Gaza (at least) is elected. I mean, this is just bigotry. Palestinians are not responsible for the policies of the governments of Syria, Iran and so forth. Total crap. Hamas does not systematically murder Palestinians for no more than living in their homes. Nor does it systematically deprive them of those homes. Since the Israelis refuse to live in peace within their own borders and insist on expansionary foreign policy... Only internal peace, and only since 1945. The West has barely had a day without some colonial conflict fought without apparent reason. There has never been a more bloody continent than Europe, both to other Europeans and everyone else. At least the Africans kill only Africans. * In the sense that Israelis get killed. |
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 18, 2011 6:48:02 GMT -5
After all, it's not like we could possibly have legitimate reasons for it, such as the fact that every single time the Israelis relax their policy, the Palestinians continue their bombing and terrorism. Well, it's not like that, since that's a bullshit statement. And while I'm here anyway.... What the Hell does this mean? |
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Post by SimSim on Sept 18, 2011 6:59:21 GMT -5
That's David Silverman, president of American Atheists, and that image has become an internet meme. Last winter he was on Bill O'Reilly's show and O'Reilly suggested that religion is true, and used the tides as an example of god's power. Silverman reacted with that look above.
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 18, 2011 7:00:44 GMT -5
That's David Silverman, president of American Atheists, and that image has become an internet meme. Last winter he was on Bill O'Reilly's show and O'Reilly suggested that religion is true, and used the tides as an example of god's power. Silverman reacted with that look above. It's the meme I didn't get, because it's posted EVERYWHERE and with no fucking context. |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 18, 2011 7:01:19 GMT -5
It pretty much means, "Are you serious?"
And I made that same face when I read Brendanrizzo's post.
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 18, 2011 7:13:32 GMT -5
It pretty much means, "Are you serious?" And I made that same face when I read Brendanrizzo's post. I'm pretty sure he's not serious. Either that, or seriously ill. |
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on Sept 18, 2011 7:26:16 GMT -5
The West has long been able to put aside such petty differences and live in peace, so any people who cannot do that do not deserve to live. I really, really, REALLY beg to differ on this point. You seem to forget the American continent (and much of the old Empires in fact) was not exactly colonized through agreement and without bloodshed. Even then the mainpage is full of people who gripe about what you might call "petty differences", some of which are still the focus of this conflict. No one's expecting this move, or any move within the next few decades, will suddenly make both sides drop their weapons and sing fucking kumbaya. In fact, Palestine gaining UN recognition will probably send the Israeli right wing into a frenzy. But a process should not be stopped simply because it takes more than a few generations to accomplish, and statehood is probably a positive and necessary step to accomplishing that two-state solution. |
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Post by ltfred on Sept 18, 2011 8:14:46 GMT -5
The West has long been able to put aside such petty differences and live in peace, so any people who cannot do that do not deserve to live. I really, really, REALLY beg to differ on this point. You seem to forget the American continent (and much of the old Empires in fact) was not exactly colonized through agreement and without bloodshed. Even then the mainpage is full of people who gripe about what you might call "petty differences", some of which are still the focus of this conflict. Yeah, where does he get off calling the dispute 'petty'? I mean, it's not like the very ownership of an entire country is up for stake, right? Petty differences indeed. |
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