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Post by canadian mojo on Sept 10, 2011 0:11:36 GMT -5
The real problem with bronze is that it bends and deforms whereas high(ish) carbon steel bends and springs back. In a sword duel, you could expect the steel blade to literally turn the bronze blade into a pretzel eventually, but that does not translate into armor penetration. If anything something that deforms is going to help absorb the impact; modern kevlar works on that principal.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 11, 2011 18:19:43 GMT -5
That, I am not so sure how that difficult would be. But I call bullshit on the whole "it would have no effect thing." Alright, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt & say they could ignore the pain. I think that's bullshit, but for the sake of the argument, I'll acquiesce to that point. They're still going to have impaired vision.
I think we all agree that the spartan's biggest benefit is that damn shield. That's why I'd say some kind of primitive mine is the ninja's best bet. If they can get past the shield, they'd probably want some kind of blunt instrument.
I do agree with the variable point. Perhaps I should say, "I think the ninja has more of an edge."
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Post by John E on Sept 11, 2011 21:44:28 GMT -5
That, I am not so sure how that difficult would be. But I call bullshit on the whole "it would have no effect thing." Alright, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt & say they could ignore the pain. I think that's bullshit, but for the sake of the argument, I'll acquiesce to that point. They're still going to have impaired vision. I have to agree with that. Doesn't matter how tough someone is or how much pain they can endure. If they can't see, they can't see. And that makes it pretty difficult to fight. Because a shield is a damn good weapon, and not just for defense. Heck, the Spartan's shield is probably more deadly than his little bronze sword. (at least, against an opponent with no shield of their own) If they've got one, and it's powerful enough to seriously wound the Spartan, yeah. That'd be their best bet. Or maybe the ninja could get the Spartan to chase him and drop some ground spikes. Spartan's gonna have a rough time of it with spikes in his feet.
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Post by Vene on Sept 11, 2011 21:47:38 GMT -5
If they've got one, and it's powerful enough to seriously wound the Spartan, yeah. That'd be their best bet. Or maybe the ninja could get the Spartan to chase him and drop some ground spikes. Spartan's gonna have a rough time of it with spikes in his feet. Steal one from China.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 11, 2011 22:09:35 GMT -5
My mind keeps coming back to the sickle-chain-mace thing, but I don't know how effective that'd be.
Ninja were apparently mostly a Warring States and Meiji thing, so depending on what you consider their cutoff point, their explosives were probably like what China had during the early-mid 1600s or late 1700s.
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Post by MaybeNever on Sept 11, 2011 22:22:06 GMT -5
The end of the Sengoku Jidai (Warring States Period) and start of the Meiji Restoration were separated by about 250 years. I don't know much about ninjas particularly, just the chronology of Japanese history, so maybe I've misunderstood your point.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 11, 2011 23:07:44 GMT -5
My point was this:
Japanese history from the 15th century to the 19th is when ninja operated, except for this odd section in the 16th-18th (the Tokugawa Period) where they weren't doing as much, because there wasn't as much internal strife.
And, after 250 years of relative inaction, they probably weren't very much like their Warring States counterparts. Even then, the 15th century (apparently the accepted first evidence of "ninja") was a very different place.
So, I'm trying to give an idea for what kind of technology they had, but it's hard, because it requires you to assign an arbitrary "cutoff point" for what is or is not a ninja.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 11, 2011 23:13:30 GMT -5
If you can't see then listen for your enemy.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 11, 2011 23:15:56 GMT -5
If you can't see then listen for your enemy. It's not like the ninja are known for silent movement, or anything.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 11, 2011 23:18:01 GMT -5
It's not like I was talking specifically about one type of opponent. In general in the context of how a Spartan could fight while blinded (if even able to be blinded).
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Post by davedan on Sept 11, 2011 23:19:35 GMT -5
I agree that the spartan's shield is probably his most effective weapon but once again I think it is only effective as part of a group. It is the impact and force of the phalanx which knocks the opponent of their feet. Once your down you're dead. Either because you're open to a spear or just being trampled.
I don't think that's so effective in one on one combat. Also those things are fucking heavy. If the ninja just keeps the spartan moving then attacks once they are fucked. The other thing is that shields can be rendered useless by weighing them down. The romans used their Pila like this very effectively against the Macedonians. Basically you use the javeling sticking out of the shield and weighing it down renders it very hard to effectively use. Once their shield is down they are fucked.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 11, 2011 23:37:35 GMT -5
Fair enough, but that's not my only objection to it. I really don't think it's as effective as people tend to think it is.
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Post by Vene on Sept 12, 2011 0:02:10 GMT -5
Fair enough, but that's not my only objection to it. I really don't think it's as effective as people tend to think it is. There's a reason shields were used until plate armor came into existence. You know, the stuff that was accurately called "sword proof."
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Sept 12, 2011 0:23:25 GMT -5
If you can't see then listen for your enemy. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine their hearing not being unaffected by the helmet covering almost their entire head.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 12, 2011 0:50:25 GMT -5
Fair enough, but that's not my only objection to it. I really don't think it's as effective as people tend to think it is. There's a reason shields were used until plate armor came into existence. You know, the stuff that was accurately called "sword proof." I...don't understand how this is a response to what you quoted. It has nothing to do with swords or armor. It's about how viable the tactic of "locate your enemy through sound" is.
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