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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 12, 2011 4:01:50 GMT -5
Fair enough, but that's not my only objection to it. I really don't think it's as effective as people tend to think it is. How so? Being able to fight while blinded and doing it via sound? Loads of people learn how to do it.
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Post by John E on Sept 12, 2011 8:54:56 GMT -5
I agree that the spartan's shield is probably his most effective weapon but once again I think it is only effective as part of a group. It is the impact and force of the phalanx which knocks the opponent of their feet. Once your down you're dead. Either because you're open to a spear or just being trampled. I don't think that's so effective in one on one combat. The hoplite shield wasn't optimized for one on one combat, but we're till talking shield vs. so shield. It's still a mobile wall that covers the Spartan from neck to knee as well as a deadly blunt force weapon. You mean once the guy who's been training since age 8 to fight in heavy armor for hours on end gets tired out?
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Post by Vene on Sept 12, 2011 9:03:08 GMT -5
There's a reason shields were used until plate armor came into existence. You know, the stuff that was accurately called "sword proof." I...don't understand how this is a response to what you quoted. It has nothing to do with swords or armor. It's about how viable the tactic of "locate your enemy through sound" is. Oh, I thought you were disputing the usefulness of a shield. Carry on.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Sept 12, 2011 16:10:27 GMT -5
And all that was obviated by a couple of wise-guys who thought propelling a heavy, lead shot with an explosion in a tube would be a good way of killing people.
(SPOILER: They were right.)
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Post by davedan on Sept 12, 2011 16:23:41 GMT -5
You mean once the guy who's been training since age 8 to fight in heavy armor for hours on end gets tired out?[/quote]
Look I'm not doubting the old spartan was a bad mother but the reality is that as the battle wore on he would get tired. It doesn't matter how hard you train, you have a superfit guy encased in metal carrying a fucking heavy shield running after a fit to really fit guy in either very light clothes or very light armour not carrying a shield. The matter becomes exacerbated if the shield keeps getting things stuck in it, not so much arrows as I think there would have to be many of those but javelins in particular. One of those sticking out the wrong way could make it virtually impossible to use the shield. Once again the hoplite is effective because you can't get around him or outflank him because he is part of the phalanx.
Outside of the phalanx you are having difficulties. Personally I think a spartan is a better chance of fighting a samurai. At least here is a guy who is going to come at him and not try to get round him and hamstring him.
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 16:30:12 GMT -5
That show really has no scientific basis. The battlefield is an "Any given Sunday" sort of situation.
For people unfamiliar with the quote, it's the idea that any team can win on any day depending on the day.
I saw the one between KGB and Green Berets and laughed my fucking ass off at the way the "simulated battle" at the end went. Especially when the one Green Bean ran across an open room firing blindly at a catwalk.
Still, it's amusing to watch.
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Post by Vene on Sept 12, 2011 17:33:41 GMT -5
That show really has no scientific basis. The battlefield is an "Any given Sunday" sort of situation. For people unfamiliar with the quote, it's the idea that any team can win on any day depending on the day. I saw the one between KGB and Green Berets and laughed my fucking ass off at the way the "simulated battle" at the end went. Especially when the one Green Bean ran across an open room firing blindly at a catwalk. Still, it's amusing to watch. Personally, I like seeing the kind of damage the weapons can do and how well the armor stands up against it. The actual "result" is not so important.
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Post by John E on Sept 12, 2011 20:49:48 GMT -5
Look I'm not doubting the old spartan was a bad mother but the reality is that as the battle wore on he would get tired. It doesn't matter how hard you train, you have a superfit guy encased in metal carrying a fucking heavy shield running after a fit to really fit guy in either very light clothes or very light armour not carrying a shield. The matter becomes exacerbated if the shield keeps getting things stuck in it, not so much arrows as I think there would have to be many of those but javelins in particular. One of those sticking out the wrong way could make it virtually impossible to use the shield. Once again the hoplite is effective because you can't get around him or outflank him because he is part of the phalanx. Two things: First, as far as I know, ninja didn't use javelins or anything else that could penetrate a heavy shield and weigh it down. Second, "as the battle wore on," if we're talking about a one-on-one fight, once the fighters engage in earnest (there might be several minutes of stalking and feeling each other out) it's going to be over in a matter of seconds, MAYBE minutes. That's interesting. I would give the Samurai much better odds than the ninja. Thing is, I think a ninja could kill a Spartan, just not in a head to head fight like they showed. No ninja in his right mind would go up against a fully armored warrior in the open who saw him coming. The ninja would book it, come back later when the Spartan wasn't ready for him, and stab him in the back. Personally, I like seeing the kind of damage the weapons can do and how well the armor stands up against it. The actual "result" is not so important. This.
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Post by tygerarmy on Sept 13, 2011 13:21:04 GMT -5
Look I'm not doubting the old spartan was a bad mother but the reality is that as the battle wore on he would get tired. It doesn't matter how hard you train, you have a superfit guy encased in metal carrying a fucking heavy shield running after a fit to really fit guy in either very light clothes or very light armour not carrying a shield. The matter becomes exacerbated if the shield keeps getting things stuck in it, not so much arrows as I think there would have to be many of those but javelins in particular. One of those sticking out the wrong way could make it virtually impossible to use the shield. Once again the hoplite is effective because you can't get around him or outflank him because he is part of the phalanx. Two things: First, as far as I know, ninja didn't use javelins or anything else that could penetrate a heavy shield and weigh it down. Second, "as the battle wore on," if we're talking about a one-on-one fight, once the fighters engage in earnest (there might be several minutes of stalking and feeling each other out) it's going to be over in a matter of seconds, MAYBE minutes. That's interesting. I would give the Samurai much better odds than the ninja. Thing is, I think a ninja could kill a Spartan, just not in a head to head fight like they showed. No ninja in his right mind would go up against a fully armored warrior in the open who saw him coming. The ninja would book it, come back later when the Spartan wasn't ready for him, and stab him in the back. Personally, I like seeing the kind of damage the weapons can do and how well the armor stands up against it. The actual "result" is not so important. This. For the idea that the Spartan would get tired chasing or following the Ninja, the Spartan can just stand there and rest only having to turn as the Ninja runs around, while I do not see either of them actually fatiguing themselves running after each other. One on one anyone can win. The show should put both in their optimum environments. 1000 Ninja ambushing Spartans battles, 1000 Phalanx vs. a Ninja clan, and 1000 then a Ninja vs. a Spartan.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 13, 2011 16:25:31 GMT -5
Certainly not. Shields are Boring But Practical.
I can't find any actual data on how effective fighting blind is. Either my search engine is fucked up, or that's a red flag.
Either way, I'm going to have to go completely on perception & hypothesis here: It comes down to "How can you tell if what you heard was your enemy's killing strike or a squirrel?" Defending against the wrong thing can cost you, & your enemy has the luxury of being invisible--you do not.
There would also be a dramatic difference in results vs. close fighting styles and far-off ones, & most armies practiced both. So it would just seem to be common sense to me that, if you could, you would back the fuck off and try to take this guy out with a bow, or a poison dart, or something.
Or Worf Had The Flu.
I would not give them particularly more advantageous odds. There was a lot of overlap, and if a samurai has to "play the role," so to speak, he also has a lot of disadvantages because there's stuff he could use that wasn't deemed acceptable in a duel.
I really don't see the ninja "tiring out" the Spartan, though. He's going to have to rely on a lot of baiting and dodging attacks on a guy who marches thousands of miles without rest. It COULD happen, but it's not practical in the least. I would think, instead of rendering the Spartan immobile, it would be more prudent to use his mobility against him. Try to bait him into charging into the sun, a marsh, get him to focus on guarding his face when he should be worried about the crossbow bolt you're firing into his foot, etc.
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Sept 13, 2011 20:32:53 GMT -5
Can't really get that bolt into his foot when the shield is pretty much a wall that covers pretty much his entire front. If you can't see then listen for your enemy. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine their hearing not being unaffected by the helmet covering almost their entire head. Insight on this would be mighty appreciated.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 13, 2011 21:05:25 GMT -5
Sometimes the Spartan helmet would have openings for the ears as seen in this image. If they do wear the closed helmet I see no reason why they wouldn't remove it if they absolutely had to. This is of course assuming we have them going one-on-one instead of in their phalanx army formats. If they were in their phalanx a lot of things would be moot. As for data of fighting blind, they don't tend to focus on that because you have to have a certain amount of eyesight to actually get into the military. But ancient fighters probably learned how to fight in multiple ways, including fighting blind. The Spartans of course were thought to be super human and trained since they were children. Oh, and the ninja we all imagine aren't the actual historical ninja. So the variable points made in ninja vs Spartan is kinda moot. That's the problem with these battles, too many variables. It's really just entertainment until we can get a time machine to grab x amount of ninja and x amount of Spartans and have them fight.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 13, 2011 22:32:15 GMT -5
Effectively, you are saying, "I'm sure they could do it." It's not really very convincing.
It would have been more entertaining for me had they tested things like bombs, arquebus, & chain armor.
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Sept 13, 2011 22:36:57 GMT -5
They did test those things.
In other episodes.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 13, 2011 22:49:53 GMT -5
But ninja used them.
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